78 Firebird V6 swap to V8 questions!

Hello,

My name is Stephen, I'm a new member! I just recently bought a 1978 Pontiac Firebird with the underpowered 231 V6, with an automatic transmission. The body is in great shape, and I love the look of the car, but it's all show and no go! I've been toying with the idea of swapping to a v8, but I'm not very knowledgeable in this realm. I figured that it's about time I got my hands dirty anyway, and what better opportunity to learn this stuff than on a beauty like this. I plan on having the major work done professionally, but I want to be as involved as possible. I figure if I make most of the decisions up front, I'll save some money, and I'll learn a thing or two in the process.

I've been doing a little research trying to determine what engine would work best in this car. I'm operating under the assumption that a newer fuel injected v8 might get better gas mileage, and might smog easier (i live in California). Am I wrong about that?


I understand that a crate motor will be pricey and require alot of work, since it doesn't include everything needed for the swap. I'll be dealing with a piecemeal situation. I think I want to avoid this. If I buy a donor car, then I should be able to harvest most of the necessary parts from it, thus spending less money on the whole package. I will still need to figure out engine mounts, re-routing cabling, and repositioning the battery to the opposite side. I'm not clear on whether I can use the transmission from the donor car or not.

From what I understand, just about any chevy 350 will fit in this car. I noticed that the 1994-96 Chevy Caprice has the LT-1 engine, which might be a good fit since it's the same engine used in the 93-97 firebird formula.

I'm mostly looking for general advice, since I really don't know what I'm doing here, but I also have some specific questions:

1. Is a newer fuel injected v8 going to get better gas mileage, and lower emissions, or should I not fixate on this?
2. If I do an engine swap from v6 - v8, do I need to register the vehicle differently or update anything with the DMV?
3. Does it matter than the vin #'s won't match?
4. Will I have a problem smogging the car since it was originally a v6? As in, if they smog the new v8 as if it was a v6 will it automatically fail?
5. Am I right in thinking that swapping the engine won't negatively affect the value, since a v6 firebird isn't exactly the most desirable anyway?
6. Since I'll have to swap the transmission, can I switch to manual without a major overhaul?

Thanks for any advice you can spare, and sorry for writing a novel as my first post!

Stephen


The specs on the car:
2 = pontiac
S = Base firebired
87 = sport coupe
A = 231 c.i.d. 2 bbl v6
8 = 1978
L = Van Nuys, CA
181,047 Production number  
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I'm here to learn!

Stephen, first off, Thankyou for writing a novel. You've obviously put alot of thought into the ramifications of the swap and are asking all the right questions. As far as value goes, no I don't think swapping in any V8 will negatively affect the resale price of a V6 Base Firebird- as long as it is done right and not cobbled together like a demolition derby entry (trust me, I've seen lots of cars done that way!)
I'm in Canada, so I can't speak first hand about California smog rules or the DMV requirements. But my understanding is that any swap must meet the emissions requirements of the new engine's model year vehicle (any Californians, feel free to correct me here!). So if you swap 95 Caprice LT1 into your V6 Bird, you need to include all the smog equipment from the Caprice, A.I.R. pump, catalytic converters etc. As for the actual testing and registration, you need to go to your local testing station and DMV and ask what the requirements are before you turn any wrenches. The easiest swaps will be using a 78-81 Firebird/Formula/TA V8 drivetrain from a donor, using everything from one car to make the other one perfect. Personally I prefer using Pontiac V8's for this swap, because I'm a purist, but I'm also realistic and not everybody sees it my way or can afford to do it my way. The later model efi swap is a good one and is  easy enough and yes it will give you much better fuel economy. Using the motor mounts from a Chevy V8 powered Bird or Camaro will get the LT1 bolted in, there may be trans mount and crossmember mods to fit the 700r4 and the driveshaft will have to be shortened. Use all the accessories and brackets from the donor and check the ads in HPP for EFI wiring and fuel system kits, there are several available. With your Buick V6, you shouldn't have to relocate the battery for a Chevy V8 swap, just for the Pontiac V8. If any other questions pop up, feel free to ask.
Steve  
Trying to help... 'cause we don't all have to learn the hard way!

Stephen, I forgot to mention the manual trans swap. If you use a traditional Pontiac or carburated Chevy V8, any Muncie or T10 trans swap is as easy as finding the pedals,linkage and flywheel/bell housing/trans and shifter and bolting them in. Later model 5 or 6 speed swaps with the efi engine will require more work that I'm not familiar with. Also with the EFI swap there are speedometer adapter kits that allow the ECM to see an electronic siganl and still hook up your mechanical speedo cable.
Steve  
Trying to help... 'cause we don't all have to learn the hard way!

The 700r4, is that the tranny from the caprice? That is most likely an automatic transmission, isn't it?

Any tips for finding a donor car beyond just looking up a junkyard and inquiring?  
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I'm here to learn!

sorry, replied before I read the next post.

So, what your saying is, switching to a manual transmission if I were to use a v8 from the surrounding years is trivial, but a newer v8 might involve much more?

In this case, would it be advisable to stay with an automatic transmission? Wouldn't that mean I need a computer?

I'm starting to wonder if a fuel injected v8 is really worth the trouble...  
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I'm here to learn!

So, as far as smog goes, I will need to carry over all smog equipment. This means that if I get a newer engine with a computer in it, than I will have to have all of the sensors, including the pressure sensor in the gas tank. So, add a gas tank to the swap. Wow, this could get really complicated.  
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I'm here to learn!

After doing alot of research, I've discovered that an lt 1 swap is no trivial task due to the electrical system and the ODB I or ODB II system in the pcm. I basically would have to install and wire all the sensors so the computer would think that it's still in the donor car. Wow, now that could be extremely complicated.

I've found sites dedicated to lt 1 swaps into 3rd gen firebirds, but I can't find a single page where someone has done a swap into a 2nd gen firebird. Bummer.

I guess what this means is that I need to find a different engine to plan the swap, most likely a carbureted engine.

Any suggestions are welcome! My priorities are ordered as follows:
1. Cost of swap.
2. Fuel Economy.
3. Emissions.
4. Power.

Stephen  
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I'm here to learn!

You've got the right idea some far. You didn't mention your desired goal for this project, driver, bracket racer, or cruiser.???? But you state your 231 Buick V-6 is gutless. Well it may be worn out or in a bad state of turn but these little guys can be very torquey motors. This is a very extensive project you are talking about for a first timer. Maybe you should consider hopen' up this little motor and maybe switching to a 5 speed that should be fairly available. Our 86 Grand National is no gutless wonder. Pontiac wouldn't have used them in the Pace Car Edition if the they were truely gutless. As for gas mileage the GN
gets 25-26 going 70 on the highway. Good luck keep thinking out this project before you buy your set of hand tools.You need a place to do this,time to do it and don't forget the long green.  

At the moment, my car is dog slow. It's totally possible that I could improve the performance on the v6. But, a v8 just seems so tempting!  
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I'm here to learn!

Buddy I'm in the same boat with a 85 firebird i picked up for $350...I'd say just do a tranny swap and rebuild the v6 I mean wasn't that what smokey(and the bandits) driving? I might be wrong but honestly with your emission standards It is going to be alittle tougher than other projects...but not impossible! See if some local friends of yours could help you out with this its always fun to work on a car with your buddys. hey man good luck


Stephen King
(not the author)  

Stephen,
Bandit most definitely did NOT drive a V6! The Bandit cars for the movie were either 400cid(6.6L) V8 Pontiac or 403cid(6.6L) V8 Oldsmobile powered, with the exception of the bridge jump car which supposedly had a built 455cid(7.4L) V8 Pontiac. All are a long way removed from Buicks anemic 3.8L (231cid) wheezer. No Trans Am ever came with an engine smaller than 301cid(4.9L), Firebirds yes, TA's NO!
Steve  
Trying to help... 'cause we don't all have to learn the hard way!

Stephen,
The V-8 swap is a good idea, but IMO you're taking on alot of work that most professional garages will charge alot to do. It's not impossible or even difficult to do, but you're talking about many hours of labor which will amount to thousands of dollars unless you do most of the work yourself or with friends working for free.

I like Steve's idea of using a stock 78 Pontiac V-8- it's the simplest and easiest way to get a V-8 in (just swap engine and frame mounts), and they are relatively plentiful. If you try to install an LT-1 from a later model car, it must pass emissions for that year engine- good luck also trying to graft a wiring harness to run the LT-1 (alot of work). Just use a carb- simpler and can be tuned to run decently. You will also have alot of paperwork to fill out at the DMV- much easier to get a 75-78 smogger V-8. If you want mileage run a 2 bbl.- I got 18-20 mpg when my 'Bird had a 350 2 bbl., but it was also much slower as well.

As Steve mentioned, going with a stock GM 4-speed is a bolt in.

Geno  

V6 Trans Am, yes...1989 Turbo Trans Am. They made approx. >1500 Turbo Trans Ams with the Buick Turbo 231 V6. Basically the same block as in the 1976 Firebird minus the Turbo. The little V6 pumped out about 300 HP! Nice little motor!  

I stand corrected, but my reference was meant to be about the 2nd gen cars used in the Bandit movies.  
Trying to help... 'cause we don't all have to learn the hard way!