Hedman Header fit issues

I'm currently running a set of 28140 Hedmans.(1968 Firebird) Just got a set of HTC Hedman 35276 headers, went to intalled them and found the the right side is so close to the oil filter that it would not possible to remove it,looks to be 2-3 inches shorter then the old headers which puts them ~ 1 inch from the floor board... . (I'm running a adapter between the filter and housing to that allows additional taps). I also noticed the tie-rod arm is less then 1/4' from the header pipes. Anybody running these in a 1st Gen FB, did you see what I'm seeing? I reinstalled the old ones for now, is anybody running Doug's? Any issues?

For sale New, never ran headers, let them go for 375.00 plus shipping.  

I had fitment problems with Hedman's on my 2nd gen Trans Am.  They simply would not fit without modification and I cannot get to the starter or the oil filter, I had to dimple them to clear the sub-frame and I had to put a heat shield between the collector and the starter.  Oh, and I cannot fix my trans cooling line leak because I cannot get a wrench in there without removing the Pain in the Butt pipes.

When I ask headman about it I got a curt reply - "they fit, 40 years ago they fit, and they still fit".  When I ask them to expalin how I didn't get a reply.

I am not a big fan of headers in a street car anyway and plan to replace them with some Ram Airs in the future.

No thanks on the ones you are selling even at $3.75

Milt  

Thanks Mr. Milt
I also sent emails to Hedman, have not heard back, don't expect too either. I knew I was shooting for the moon when I asked 3.75... LOL.  

you might also want to check the sub frame for cross member sag.. some cars have it .. some don't

 

Wayne: "Sag" would suggest that the Sub-Frame bends over time.  I had never considered that.  I don't, at least in my case think it affected the fit of the headers but I would like to hear more.  Can you elaborate please?

1968: I was just kidding you about the $3.75 and I am glad you noticed that. I'm sure you can sell them to someone.

Milt  

Parts stores usually have two lengths of oil filters for our Pontiacs, make sure you're using a short one like a Delco PF24.  

cross member sag..

this is one way to stretch it out..???   i have a different way..




what happens is the front suspension is hung off the top and bottom of the frame rail...

with a crossmember between them.    the up and down motion pushed the top of the frame rails together..   with the cross member welded in and on the low side.. the crossmember actually bends in slightly..  bringing the top of the frame rails together..

this results in not enough shims to remove to restore camber to proper angles.. there are offset upper control arm shafts to attempt to fix this... but its easier if you have the TOOLS  and it takes a significant amount of not in the regular shop tools unless you are a wheel alignment guru..  or a frame guy...


but getting headers in that totally fill the area... oh my...

in my old 66 GTO.. i spend 3 days trying to get them in.. hammered them almost flat... and then the starter would not go in...  once i took it to a frame shop.. they pulled it about 2 inches apart...  the studs for the upper control arm shaft actually hit the exhaust manifolds..

the RED line above on the F body diagram above is between the upper control arm mounting brackets..   the inside faces where the shims mount over the studs..

one can get creative and lay some towels over the fenders...   lay a 2x4 across.. use some 3/16 welding rod...  and some C clamps or what ever... arrange the shape of the wires to just barely touch the inside of the brackets and around the various accessories...

hook them up so you can remove the entire 2x4 with them on it.. then measure between the ends .. is it 30  3/4 on your first generation firebird or camaro..  or even nova and its variants..

i don't know if any of the magazines have done an article on crossmember sag..

items needed..

a truly level work area...
floor jack.. jack stands...

wheel alignment gauge... some can be had for under 100 bucks..
a 20 ton bottle. ***
2 lengths of 3/8 frame pulling chain with catch the link type hooks..  these are probably 10 or 15 footers..
a jacking beam.. 5 or 6 foot.. hit the steel yard for some 5" W Beam..  what.. its wide flange I beam..

warning.. this is complex... screw this up and you may need to REPLACE THE SUBFRAME or the FRAME...

set the caster on both sides...  that the upper ball joint behind the lower ball joint..

camber really does not matter.. as long as you have a minimum of TWO 1/8" wheel alignment shims on each of the studs.

note exactly what the camber readings are..  please use either greased sheet metal squares  or wheel alignment turn tables..

now...    jack the car up high in the air.. support with jack stands on the frame behind the front suspension.. not under it..    

note camber readings with the suspension hanging..   figure out the differences...

then note the on the floor camber and where you want it to be...

then calculate  how much you need ...  and which side needs MORE.. this is important..

remove the front wheels if they are not already off... depending on the length of your jacking beam..

run the chains up the front outside of the framerail.. behind the upper control arm mounting and over the top of the frame rail behind the upper control arms.. PLEASE be careful to NOT  crush the brake line or bracket..  and to NOT catch the upper control arm...  leave the ends of the chain hanging down...

once both are installed..    loop the chain ends.. so you have a loop about 12 to 14 inches bellow the crossmember.. so you can slip the W beam into the bottom of the loop of chain..

set the 20 ton bottle jack on top of the jacking beam...  i usually have some 1/2 or 3/4" plate scraps.. to set on top of the jack top... to spread the load.. .

if one side needs to be spread more than the other.. move the jack toward that side..   that will exert more force on that side... something that cannot be done with a port a power between the upper control arm mounts..

this is where it gets dicey..   if you jack TOO Far...  you can destroy the frame..  

jacking it up and spreading it out  then releasing and examining the camber readings...  see how close you have come to the desired  amounts of change per side...  as you calculated just after you jacked the whole car up in the air and set it on jack stands...

there is some rebound.. when you release...

oh.. since i have done a few... the last few of these i only spend a few hours on..  on the frame rack of the FRAME GURU who taught me this trick.. i could do it in 30 minutes..  with exactly the same stuff as above..

some low life grabbed my jacking beam and recycled it..  another friend chopped up my frame pulling chains for another project..    guess i have to show everybody which stuff to use.. he just thought the frame pulling chain was better for his project..


perhaps the next bare frame that IDJ has in his shop.. he might position some of the frame pulling chains over and behind the upper control arms and down the outside of the frame...

perhaps if the magazine staff in the el segundo office... gives sends me a message on one of the many forums i cover.. i will come down and outline the article for them...  i am only 20 miles from there. and from where i sit.. i can actually see the original peterson building..

most frame pulling guys i have talked to want to spend several hours on the set up.. when the way i was taught works really fast without a WHOLE lot of work...

i did a bunch of them in my driveway..  yep .. that simple...  i just don't have any close friends with bend A or F bodies right now..  other than all of you...  

OH!!!

an easy way to tell if you have cross member sag...

do you have to use BIG PRY BARS to insert the motor mount thru bolts...

if you have one heck of a timing getting them in.. then you have cross member sag..  

Great info Wayne! Back before I fixed wrecks for a decade, I had a '75 GP with that problem. Wouldn't keep an alignment. Fortunately since I was around bodyshops a lot, I chose a bodyshop to do my alignment once. They corrected it and told me about it afterwards. It wasn't a big job and didn't take much. But a plain old alignment shop won't give you a hint about xmember sag because most haven't a clue about it or how to correct it. Example ... years ago, my buddy was going V6 to V8 in a lowered 88 C1500. All done but couldn't get the second thru-bolt into the motor mount. It sat for weeks until I was pulling a damaged frame and had an idea. Jacked the truck up with a single jack under the center of the engine crossmember and was able to drop that engine right down into the mounts. That got me thinking about the engine block as a structural component. That truck is still running around town and doin great but I have to wonder how much strain is exerted on the block with the sagging frame when it crosses railroad tracks!  

68 are you running a pontiac motor or chevy?i to have a 68 and plan on headers on the 70 400.i just swapped sub frames.  
REAL CARS FUEL FROM THE BACK!

Who would want to run a Chevy in a Pontiac? I can understand a Chevy wanting a Pontiac but not the other way around! Yes I run a 1967 400 block stroked to a 461, and yes I'm running a AC24 short filter. They fit alot tighter then the 3 pipe hedmans (28140). They will work, but I would have to completly re-do my exhaust from header interface and back. Why would Hedman not make all there headers the same, so you could go from 3 pipe configuration to a 4 pipe configuration... Oh wait, that would be too easy. On the sub frame sag, I don't think this is my issues, the headers just don't fit as well as I would like/expect.  

Wayne:  Thank you for the detailed information.  I will be checking Sag on both of my Trans Ams but if I find Sag I don't think I am in a position to fix it my garage so I will follow Mat's advice and get someone, like you, that knows what there doing.

A real Pontiac engine in a Pontiac may be rarer than you think. Headman's may not be the best header and I did not care for their attitude; but Wayne could have hit the mark on our fitment problems, and I will be checking it as soon as the ice melts and I am not endanger of freezing.  

Milt  

Wayne, do you have the spec for 2nd gen F-bodies and A-bodies? I would like to check my 79 Formula and 70 Tempest before I put the new engines and headers in them, especially the Tempest since the frame is completely bare right now and would be easy to fix.
Steve  
A little help... 'cause we don't all have to learn the hard way!

i would really like a few of you who have their engines out...

to measure the distance between the inside of the upper control arm mounting brackets...

but also between the frame rails where the header passes... but measured from below... so one could do the measurement from under the car on a lift... to see how much their frame has collapsed..

with that measurement one could take 3 chunks of 2x4s and screw them together to make a measuring tool.. for a will it fit in mine...

others will have engines on the stands... with headers...  can you do an outside measurement of your headers where they pass through the frame rails..    so we can build a database of will it fit or won't it..

having somebody with a plumb bob.. and their engine sitting on the stand figure out exactly what the center to center bolt spacing should be for the motor mount thru bolts..  

Wayne, once we know we have and issue and fix it.  How do you suggest we keep it from coming back. Which I think is likely.

Just off the top of my head. I am thinking some 1" tubing welded to form a truss would just in from of the Crank pulley would do a lot to keep this from happening again. Maybe adding a mid mounting plate to the back of the motor would also help.

Milt