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Camshaft Nitriding

  
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Camshaft Nitriding

 
chrisaustria chrisaustria
User | Posts: 187 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 01/31/13
11:15 AM

Hi!

What do you think of that?
My engine builder wants to harden the cam because of some bad experience in the last time most because of the low zinc engine oil I guess.
This is what CompCams offers: http://www.compcams.com/nitriding/ (pretty much the same as what he wants to do)

The CompCams camshafts come with some kind of coating.. Is there something to worry about if I use the standard camshaft with my mild performance engine that will mainly be driven on the street? I use 15w40 and add ZDDP.

Chris  

Pontiacman8 Pontiacman8
Moderator | Posts: 5775 | Joined: 02/08
Posted: 01/31/13
11:37 AM

I have always used valvoline VR-1 it has higher levels of ZDDP in it and have never had any problems as long as you do a proper break in on the camshaft.  
Engine builder,self taught auto body guy.
Horsepower sells engines and torque wins races

Pontiacman8
Pontiacman8
Pontiacman8

barnett468 barnett468
User | Posts: 223 | Joined: 12/12
Posted: 01/31/13
10:28 PM

Chris, chris, chris

I woke up this morning and the sky was blue and the birds were singing. I as well as some others had hoped that your questions were all behind you and the next time we heard from you regarding your very nice motor you would be happily saying, “got my car running and it kicks a__".

My coating comment is this, others opinions may be different. Flip a coin, heads coat it, tails, don’t. this may truly be more helpful in your specific case than you realize. Please read Pontiac man’s statement very slowly several times you may then understand what he really means.  

Pontiacmans answer is short, sweet and to the point and says a whole lot more than it appears to but only those of us with proficient engine building skills and extensive experience and zddp knowledge or those that have read about these things truly understand the beauty of his statement. I think he is being a bit naughty here.

There are two types of “expert” engine builders, those that are actually knowledgeable and competent and those that merely ”think” or claim they are knowledgeable and competent. As long as you have a warranty a builder will honor [providing his doors are still open when you return there for it] than you can simply keep replacing your motor every time it blows up! Nothing wrong with that is there? Maybe?

Your comment regarding your mechanic saying something about flat cams and zddp speaks several volumes about his overall level of expertise and understanding of oil technology and possibly engine building. Your comment about adding ZDDP to oil also speaks volumes regarding your knowledge regarding this issue also. You might not know quite as much about zddp and it’s relationship to camshaft protection as you might like to so I will help you and then you will probably still keep adding it to your oil instead of simply buying oil with sufficient amounts already in it as well as other protective additives like VALVOLINE VR1. I have recently posted a few fairly detailed and non subjective posts on the subject. Since you know how to search the site just search my user name to find them.

The number one thing you can do to help yourself is read my posts and tuffnuffs recent post and also look up valvoline.com and read their article about it. Don’t look up mobile 1. I also made a highly detaiked on the way i break motors in. many people miss one very important on hydraulic cam break in regarding priming the lifters.  


FROM CHRIS

"What do you think of that?
My engine builder wants to harden the cam because of some bad experience in the last time most because of the low zinc engine oil I guess.
This is what CompCams offers: http://www.compcams.com/nitriding/ (pretty much the same as what he wants to do)

The CompCams camshafts come with some kind of coating.. Is there something to worry about if I use the standard camshaft with my mild performance engine that will mainly be driven on the street? I use 15w40 and add zddp".


This is what i think of that, as you say. It sounds to knowledgeable engine builders that your engine builder is trying to insure against his inexperience. how about this, instead of coating the cam so he can run low zddp oil and possibly high valve spring pressure why doesn't he simply do it properly and use "high" zddp PURE MINERAL BASED OIL and proper spring pressures with no cam coating? Don't worry about running the cam as is, you better worry about your "expert" engine builder instead.


This may greatly help you but you'll still probably want more and more opinions which is good.

 
FOR BREAK IN -

1.Tell your engine builder to install the static valve spring pressure between 115 and 130 and leave it there for life unless he wants to use 95-105 just for break in and change them after. I don't care what the comp book says for after break in pressure. Their recomendations are sometimes a little high.  

2. use joe gibbs break in oil dor break in and first 500 miles or break in with vr1. joe gibbs is best, has less detergents to wash off zddp during break in. switch to vr1 or oil with similar zddp content. I'm guessing your enginbe builder didn't know about the detergent washing the zinc off.

PS - Joe gibbs states that he does not coat his hydraulic cams. in fact he says he actually removes the black coating your cam comes with because it can cause break in problems and he explains why. you can find it on the internet.  


CHRIS - Here's my posts below for you.

zddp and oil

there is a lot of confusing and incorrect information regarding synthetic vs conventional oil and the usefullness of zddp, the ideal concentration required and the ability of one mfgs formulae of zddp to mix with another mfgs formulae of synthetic oil, so it’s extremely easy and understandable for one to potentially do the wrong thing. heck mobil 1 flat out lies about the anti wear abilities of zddp compared to other additives and synthetic oils however they make an oil specifically with a high zddp content specifically designed for use in older flat tappet non catalytic cars, how come?. you can read this article for yourself on their sites. mobil 1 and valvoline dont even agree on how much zddp is ideal for older motors, so whats one to think. simply put, just because you are adding zddp to your oil in no way means that your oil and zddp combination did not cause your cam failure. dont want to sound smarter than i am but i have researched this a lot and have personally spoken to valvoline tech center regarding this so it is a fact not an opinion. you can call them for yourself and see. if you dont believe what they say you can argue with them, i'm out of the loop. believe me, they have had so many questions regarding this topic they all probably know the oil specs off the top of their heads by now. i was also directly affected by the reduction of zddp in oil many years ago when suddenly all the cam mfgs were having cam failures for a while. most people hear about comp so they blame comp which is wrong. comp finally figured it out and told us the problem was 100% guaranteed to be caused by the lack of sufficient zddp providing everything else in your motor was good and it was broken in properly. heres the obvious problem, how can one break in a motor properly when they are not told by the oil mfg that the oil they are using doesnt have sufficient zddp for their application [flat tappet cam]. catch 22. there is no need or benefit to adding zddp to your oil if you use the right oil in the first place. Mobil 1 says .08% zddp is ideal, valvoline says .13% for vr1 street oil and .14% for "not for highway use" drag cars etc.


i have never had an oil pump failure [thank goodness]and only one flat cam, thank goodness again. it was due to the oil mfgs removing zddp [confirmed by comp cams] many years ago and not telling anyone about it. it is a crime, they cost hundreds of people thousands of dollars including me on an original 69 z28 motor. the problem was the government made them remove it and it would have been sales death to advertise their low zddp oil as their new "motor blow oil with reduced zddp levels specially formulated to handgrenade your new motor within minutes." or how bout "guaranteed to flatten your cam and your wallet faster than you can "shotgun" a can of colt 45." i usually get a dual purpose 6 pack when i start mine so i can celebrate and drink one while the cam is breaking in and use the rest to drown my sorrows if the cam melts before it's


camshaft break in and zddp article.

even this article is incomplete. it fails to mention that if one has a hydraulic cam then the crank must be rotated twice stopping every 90 degrees and spinning pump untill oil comes out all push rods. takes about 15 seconds per turn. this insures the lifters are completely full before starting.


Joe Gibbs site also has a spectacular article about EXACTLY how zddp works.  

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/trainingcenter/guides/lubricationguide.html

Good luck.  

My71 My71
Guru | Posts: 1247 | Joined: 02/10
Posted: 02/01/13
05:45 AM

Chris,
These are my own personal thoughts around nitriding a cam shaft.
The nitriding process was introduced to combat cam lobe wear since the reduction of Zinc/Moly and Phosphate compounds in motor oils due to environmental regulatory changes in the U.S. The Zinc/Moly/Phosphates were shown to damage catalytic convertors at certain levels so the oil manufacturers reduced the content in their motor oils.

Other areas affected by the lack of ZDDP in an older motor and pistons/rings and big end bearings (virtually any part under high pressure where metal to metal contact under movement by one or more parts happens).

So even if you have the builder Nitride the cam, you are still at risk in those other areas if you use a motor oil that does not have the right levels of the compounds for your motor.
Are you looking for 200,000+ miles out of your motor? Is it going to be a daily driver? Then yeah, maybe nitriding the cam is worth while.
But you should still consider oils that have the correct ZDDP levels for the other reasons mentioned.
If you're making this a weekend fun car, then skip the cost of nitriding and pay attention to the oil you put in the motor and pay close attention to the break in procedure and ZDDP levels in the oil.
Even running a roller cam, I still pay attention to the ZDDP levels in the oil for the piston/rings/bearing wear qualities of it. I use Valvolines #'s as the guide to the amounts I look for.  
Jim,

chrisaustria chrisaustria
User | Posts: 187 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 02/01/13
06:32 AM

Hi Jim!

I use "Liqui Moly 15w40". This is the oil with the most zinc available over here. (1100ppm) I always added ZDDP Maxx to get to a higher level of zinc and I will in the future because I have no catalytic converter and the addidive is cheap.
It's more a weekend driver and it will almost never see highway use (constant fast driving).
I drive about 2000 miles a year.. so 200.000 miles would need me to drive 100 years.. don't know if there will still be high octane fuel available at this time Wink So thanks, this a good advice.

I asked CompCams and they only nitride uncoated cams.. my cam is already coated. I'll talk to someone at the "nitriding company" and if it's not expensive and still possible (maybe after removing the old coating) I may nitride the cam. CompCams said it is a good insurance because it makes the cam much stronger, shouldn't be any disadvantages except of the price.

All parts are also new like pistons, piston rings, gaskets, bearings... but a good level of zinc in the oil cannot hurt.. just reduce wear I guess. I'll definitly use enough ZDDP.

The only thing I really don't like is that I buy a new cam and after I got it he says I should nitride it. I could have get a nitrided version from Comp for about 120 Dollar extra charge... pretty annoying.  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 02/01/13
07:03 AM

Relax Chris,
Your cam lobes and distributor drive gear are already parkerized, for oil retention.

PARKERIZING:

A thermo-chemical application whereby a nonmetallic, oil-absorptive coating is applied to the outside surface of the camshaft. This helps initial break-in without scuffing the cam lobes.

Just The Facts
 

Parkerizing or Phosphating is a Metal Finish that really gained in popularity during WW2 when the US Government was looking to replace the typical blued finish on most small arms with a Rust Resistant and Anti Reflective Finish that would be both Durable and Abrasion Resistant and hold up in all weather extremes, for this they chose Parkerizing or Phosphating.

The Parkerizing technique is a Phosphate etching process that produces a Hard Matte or Dull finish that is both very Durable and Anti Reflective and with excellent oil holding properties.

The most commonly types used are the original WW2 type, known as Grey Oxide and the latter Black Manganese, still in use by many Military and Civilian Manufacturers in many countries on a wide variety of products.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

My71 My71
Guru | Posts: 1247 | Joined: 02/10
Posted: 02/01/13
07:07 AM

Hi Chris!

I thought about asking this very question myself, but didn't want to seem as if I was trying to say your engine builder was trying to get all the $ out of you he could.

"The only thing I really don't like is that I buy a new cam and after I got it he says I should nitride it. I could have get a nitrided version from Comp for about 120 Dollar extra charge... pretty annoying."
 
Jim,

chrisaustria chrisaustria
User | Posts: 187 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 02/01/13
07:18 AM

I'm not sure why he does this.. maybe to make sure he will not have a case of warranty if my cam fails within one year. He has to send the cam to someone else who will nitride it.. sure he will make some money, but not very much.. I never needed extra $ 20-30 just to pretend that it was necessary. Can't believe this is his intention as well. Probably it's about warranty. But he could have told me before I ordered the cam at Comps... I wouldn't have had a problem with the extra $ 120 just for insurance.. but now it may be more expensive and will need more time Frown

@tuffnuff

Good to know what this "black" coating really is. He told me that someone had problems with a Comp camshaft and that he would like to nitride it because of this. Maybe this wasn't a coated camshaft, need to ask him. Or maybe there was something wrong with the break-in.. but he explained to me how he does this and it sounded just like I think it's good. (use only outer springs, 20-30 minutes at 2200rpm, with the proper break in oil and some kind of grease as well...)  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 02/01/13
07:44 AM

Chris,
I have built many.,. many engines and then some. I have never had to nitride a cam, nor have I wiped out a cam.
Try to alternate your RPM's between 2000 and 2500 RPM's.,. the cam /lifter interface is totally dependent on splash oiling, from the crank and drainage from the top end.
That grease is moly lube.
Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) is used as a solid lubricant and a high-pressure high-temperature (HPHT) antiwear agent. It forms strong films on metallic surfaces and is a common additive to HPHT greases — in the event of a catastrophic grease failure, a thin layer of molybdenum prevents contact of the lubricated parts.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

Pontiacman8 Pontiacman8
Moderator | Posts: 5775 | Joined: 02/08
Posted: 02/01/13
08:08 AM

+1 tuff.  
Engine builder,self taught auto body guy.
Horsepower sells engines and torque wins races

Pontiacman8
Pontiacman8
Pontiacman8

chrisaustria chrisaustria
User | Posts: 187 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 02/01/13
08:37 AM

Thank you tuff!
There is a oil available.. 10w40 with mos2... do you think this could be a nice alternative to the 15w40? This won't protect the cam at break-in but maybe it's a good choice for driving?

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_1091.html?Opendocument&land=DE  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 02/01/13
09:03 AM

Here is your link in English.

MoS2 Leichtlauf 10 W-40
Extra wear protection due to solid lubricant MoS2.
Semi-synthetic motor oil. For the cost-conscious rider. The low-friction lubricant MoS2 forms on all friction and sliding metal surfaces a heavy-duty lubricant film. Resulting benefits: Fastest oil circulation at start and minimal friction in everyday driving is kept extremely long engine life. Ensures maximum safety reserves at the start and in the warm-up phase, under extreme loads, and in stop-and-go traffic, etc. Improves reliability by excellent resistance to galling. Reduces oil and fuel consumption. Special development from LIQUI MOLY.

It appear to have a moly additive.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

chrisaustria chrisaustria
User | Posts: 187 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 02/01/13
09:06 AM

Would you either try the 10w40 with moly additive or should I go with the 15w40 like always? I could add the ZDDP to both I guess...

Your oils are not available here.. otherweise I'd go with the valvoline vr1  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 02/01/13
09:47 AM

Either weight of oil will be fine, since both are 40 weight, when warm.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

chrisaustria chrisaustria
User | Posts: 187 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 02/01/13
10:19 AM

I'll ask how much zinc is within the 10w40 with mos2.. I only know the amount of zinc in the 15w40 they offer at this time. Thanks Smile
The 15w40 is mineral oil and the 10w40 is semi synthetic.. nothing to worry about?  

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