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Cat connecting rods

 
greasemonkey6 greasemonkey6
New User | Posts: 1 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 01/19/13
05:46 PM

Hello,I am building a pump gas 500 hp 455. I have a set of new  Confused cat rods for the engine.Does anybody have any negative experiences with these rods. I am not sure if the bolts are ok to use either. They say cat 8740. That is an arp part#.Any help would be greatly appreciated.  

barnett468 barnett468
User | Posts: 223 | Joined: 12/12
Posted: 01/19/13
06:58 PM

hello grease monkey

i know a bit [but not everything] about rods and chinese parts etc. i have never used the cat's and never heard of them but this is part of what i know which are the facts. please go to the string below and read it carefully.

http://www.460ford.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-136621.html

the concensus are these rods are crap. i'll explain just a little bit why they could be.

1.They are chinese, most the chinese engine parts mfg's out right lie regarding the tensile strength of the materials they use. it is usually much less than what they claim. not suggesting in anyway that all chinese people lie so don't send me hate mail, geez.

2. none of the many chinese street racers in my area with their mini rocket cars use chinese parts in them. this should tell you something.

3.not all chinese engine parts are bad, some are very good material but typically need remachining.

4. these rods are chinese, i can tell just by the fact that i found them for $200 on the internet.

5. the arp on the side is probably put there to make you think they have arp bolts, for $200 they could be however i can almost guarantee you they don't. there are no trademark laws in china so they can put "carillo" on them without being sued.

6. a rod is only as strong as it's weakest link which means who cares about the bolt's even if they are arp's if your rod is going to separate half way up.

7. since you have a big block and its a stroker and it will have 500 hp you need good rods.

8. you get what you pay for "sometimes". if it's cheap it's junk.

9. sell them on ebay to some poor unsuspecting sole.

10. buy some decent eagle rods or better, eagles "ARE CHINESE" however they are very good and they are machined in the US.

Reliable hp is not cheap so unless you want your motor to possibly spit out more parts than it started with don't use them. They could be the grenade and your throttle is the pin.  

fastoneefi fastoneefi
Enthusiast | Posts: 347 | Joined: 01/10
Posted: 01/20/13
04:34 PM

Icon Quotebarnett468:
hello grease monkey

i know a bit [but not everything] about rods and chinese parts etc. i have never used the cat's and never heard of them but this is part of what i know which are the facts. please go to the string below and read it carefully.

http://www.460ford.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-136621.html

the concensus are these rods are crap. i'll explain just a little bit why they could be.

1.They are chinese, most the chinese engine parts mfg's out right lie regarding the tensile strength of the materials they use. it is usually much less than what they claim. not suggesting in anyway that all chinese people lie so don't send me hate mail, geez.

2. none of the many chinese street racers in my area with their mini rocket cars use chinese parts in them. this should tell you something.

3.not all chinese engine parts are bad, some are very good material but typically need remachining.

4. these rods are chinese, i can tell just by the fact that i found them for $200 on the internet.

5. the arp on the side is probably put there to make you think they have arp bolts, for $200 they could be however i can almost guarantee you they don't. there are no trademark laws in china so they can put "carillo" on them without being sued.

6. a rod is only as strong as it's weakest link which means who cares about the bolt's even if they are arp's if your rod is going to separate half way up.

7. since you have a big block and its a stroker and it will have 500 hp you need good rods.

8. you get what you pay for "sometimes". if it's cheap it's junk.

9. sell them on ebay to some poor unsuspecting sole.

10. buy some decent eagle rods or better, eagles "ARE CHINESE" however they are very good and they are machined in the US.

Reliable hp is not cheap so unless you want your motor to possibly spit out more parts than it started with don't use them. They could be the grenade and your throttle is the pin.


Wow!!
Here are the facts, not heresay like above;
Cat made rods for Olds as well. They have routinely been in 500+ Olds BB builds with no issues, just ask Bill Travato. Do a search on Bill, you'll see.
Eagles ARE machined in China, plain and simple. However they are better today than they were a few years ago.

Have the rods checked. Take them apart then retorque them. If the sizing repeats then they're fine.
And even if they need new bolts, they're still better than the crappy stock Pontiac
cast rods, anyday.

Hope this helps  
Mark
Engine builder, located in Central Florida

barnett468 barnett468
User | Posts: 223 | Joined: 12/12
Posted: 01/20/13
10:25 PM

FASTONEEFI


fastoneefi has suggested that my opinions and facts stated above are all heresay. he has also stated as a "fact" that some others personal experience with these rods is heresay. i have addressed all my comments above in order with my responses listed in direct correlation to them below. Furthermore he has failed to supply any evidence supporting his statements against me. Since in the following information i have proven his "facts" regarding eagle rods is clearly wrong it should lead one to question any other statements he posts as "facts".  

pay close attention to fastoneefi's claim that eagle rods ARE MACHINED IN CHINA. my response is corroborated below by eagle dealers claims that they are MACHINED IN THE USA. one can also simply call eagle and ask them directly. if he has proof that at least some of the original chinese eagles [not chinese copies], are machined in china i invite him to offer proof to support his claim as i have to support mine. it's possible some are. it's also possible one of the advertisers i supplied below are lying about where they are machined. it's possible but i doubt it.  

As far as the cat rods are concerned, all the evidence points to the fact that the cat rods i am referring to are chinese. there could be a us mfg of high perf rods named cat also. i am not disputing that however i want to see proof of that from fastoneefi or anyone just so i will know. if it can't be proved or suggested by reasonable evidence then what is left to think about them. Korean maybe?

fastoneefi aka mark omits stating whether he thinks or knows they are chinese, why is that?

I can't find many for sale and summit doesn't carry them, wonder why.

i'm not disputing that they can be used succesfully in motors up yo 500 hp or even more after checking the possible chinese based machining out thoroughly first. however i prefer not to spend an additional $100 remachining the brand new high performance rods i just bought. i don't know about the rest of you but that just seems suspicous and wrong to me. if i'm usung chinese rods i just prefer to use ones i know a lot more about, have personal experience with, are sold by everyone, have been around for a while, that i have never had any trouble with and are claimed to be MACHINED IN THE USA.


1. the bulk of this statement is a fact, based on my many years of extensive experience in this area.

2. this statement is a fact, also, first hand knowledge is not heresay. rocket racers in your area may use chinese rod's i'm just talking about my area.

3. this is a fact based upon my personal experience.

4. this is not a fact, it is a reasoned conclusion based upon all the facts i have found and my extensive experience in this field. i could have been more clear, my apologies.

5. this is not posed as a fact it is posed as an opinion using the words "probably" and "almost" and based upon many other things i have seen like this.

6. this is a fact based upon simple physics reinforced by the simplest logic.

7. fact along with simple logic.

8. that's what my dad told me.

9. fact this is an option

10. this statement is a fact substantiated by my own experience and research including several online ads stating this claim. see just a few of those ad sites posted below.  



EAGLE RODS "MACHINED IN USA" DEALER ADS BELOW


Eagle Connecting Rods

Eagle's Subaru connecting rods are made from 4340 steel, x-rayed, magnafluxed, sonic tested, and shot-peened to ensure optimal quality and strength. They are packaged in weight-matched sets that are within +/- 1 gram end to end. The Eagle connecting rods for the WRX & STI undergo a 2-piece forging process in China and are then shipped to the US for final machining and testing; making for a cheaper rod that is durable and precise. Eagle's EJ20, EJ255, & EJ257 WRX & STI rods include ARP 3/8" 2000 rod bolts for extensive ability to handle power and boost. 5.137" rod length.

   * FITMENT:
   * Subaru STI 2004-2007
   * Subaru WRX 2002-2007

Description Part # MSRP Price Inventory
Eagle Connecting Rods CRS5137S3D $449.65 $391.00 35 available

http://www.jscspeed.com/catalog/Connecting_Rods_for_02_07_Subaru_WRX_STI-2039-1.html




NOTICE THE LAST STATEMENT IN THIS AD.

Eagle "ESP" H Beam Connecting Rods Feature:

   * First connecting rod manufacturer to machine on the state-of-the-art Sunnen Krossgrinding™ System to hold extremely tight tolerances! Center to center length +/- .001 Big End Barrel / Bellmouthing +/- .0002 Big End Bore +/- .0002 -- Pin end bore +/- .0002
   * Stroker Design provides cam clearance for 3.800 on small block Chevy engines with no modification. Stroker design provides cam clearance for 4.250 on big block Chevy engines with no modification.
   * Weight savings between 30-70 grams (depending on rod length).
   * Reduce balancing cost! Larger stroke applications can see savings of $100.00 to $200.00 on balancing cost alone!
   * Over 80 different rods available for popular Chevrolet, Chrysler, Ford, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, AMC, Nissan, Acura, Honda and Toyota engines!
   * All Eagle "ESP" connecting rods are available individulally or in sets. Please specify weights on individual rod purchases.
   * 3-D Design offers the advantages of reduced weight without sacrificing any of our original rod's strength, offering maximum strength to weight ratio.
   * 2-Piece forging for increased strength.
   * Ready to run, installation instruction and bolt lubricant included.
   * ARP 7/16" 8740 Capscrew bolts standard (190,000 psi) unless otherwise noted. Optional ARP 2000 (230,000 psi) and ARP L-19 (265,000 psi) bolts for extreme horsepower applications. L-19 bolts are recommended for small block engines exceeding 700 horsepower and big block engines exceeding 850 horsepower.
   * Silicon bronze bushings for floating piston pins.
   * Multi-stage heat treated.
   * Packaged in weight matched sets end to end +/- 1 gram.
   * Certified 4340 steel, vacuum degassed to remove impurities.
   * Each forging is X-rayed, sonic tested and magnafluxed to insure quality.
   * All surfaces are 100% machined.
   * Shot peened to stress relieve the metal.
   * Precision alignment sleeves positively locate the rod cap, maintaining big end bore size and eliminating cap walk.
   * Eagle "ESP" Connecting Rods provide the strength and durability required in unlimited engines at a sportman rod price.
   * All Eagle "ESP" Small Block Chevrolet Rods now feature a .050 shorter bolt head for increased block clearance!
   * Forged in China.
   * Sized and finished in the United States.

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/eagle/
 

CAT'S SITE

http://www.zoominfo.com/company/C.+A.+T.+POWER+ENGINE+PARTS+INC-22058007  

barnett468 barnett468
User | Posts: 223 | Joined: 12/12
Posted: 01/21/13
12:56 AM

Can fastoneefi or someone else post the any internet site that shows the cat or cat 3d rods with prices and part numbers for pontiac or olds. i can not find them anywhere. the ones i found were not pontiac. i could have bought eagle rods from dozens of different dealers in the amount of time i have wasted trying to find the cat's.

below is the materials certification page for cat products. they do not list a certification or any type of test result at all for their rods. perhaps they simply haven't posted it yet or just haven't had the time to have them tested yet.

you will see on any of the documents listed there, cat mfg's or cat distributing's or cat importing's contact name of woody hwang, in baldwin park and his phone number of 626-330-1999 if anyone would like to call him for more info.

all this means is that he hasn't posted any test results US or otherwise on his site. just wonder why he has some products test results here but conspicuously not the purportedly "high quality" rods.

http://www.catpep.com/aboutus/certification.html  

fastoneefi fastoneefi
Enthusiast | Posts: 347 | Joined: 01/10
Posted: 01/21/13
06:41 AM

I never said the Cats' weren't made in China. Please show me where I did.
There were, they're now out of business to my knowledge. And does the Eagle site say "all" of their rods are machined here? No, because they're not. I spoke to an Eagle rep at the latest PRI and he admitted it. They may be checked here, but their quality control has been less then perfect in the past.

Did you give any example as to how to check for initial integrity? No. How many people, first hand, do you know that have used the Cats and had problems? Please list them.

I have spoken to Bill Travato many times, the Cats are in his book. You will find many guys on the various Olds sites that have used them with no problem. You will also find many who have had problems with the Eagle rods and cranks, myself included. I just used a set of Eagle H Beam rods in a 380 SBO build I did listed on Classic Olds. I had to replace the bolts, the same ones that said "ARP" on your Cat rods that you criticized so much. They wouldn't even take 30lbs of torque without stretching and distorting the rod, much less the recommended 45.

Bottom line is check every part you buy. There are ways to check them initially as I stated. No manufacturer is exempt from mistakes. There are just some that are worse than others.

Barnett468-I got your pm, sorry for repeating myself on the fuel issue.

Thank you.  
Mark
Engine builder, located in Central Florida

barnett468 barnett468
User | Posts: 223 | Joined: 12/12
Posted: 01/21/13
07:45 PM

hello fastoneefi

thanks for your response, i must admit that i am surprised with the moderate veracity of your comments. i actually expected something quite more brief and abrupt. guess you're not so bad after all. i will gladly address your comments for you the best i can. my replies are in no way an appempt to incite you or drag this on forever, they are simply as direct and concise as i can make them. i hate to be vague. please also re read my statements above before you reply if you do. i tried to chose my words very carefully.

1. you said that i claimed you said cat's were NOT made in china. this is incorrect. i simply stated the fact that for some reason you omitted that they were made in china. so i gave you the benefit of the doubt.

2. i never said ALL eagle rods were made in the us, just the ones i found on the internet and personally used. please read my comment again. i gave you the benefit of the doubt again on this one. i also believe what you say regarding the eagle rep but doesn't it seem strange to even you for them NOT to machine them ALL here "if" in fact, here is where their new $500,000.00 sunnen hone is? eagles direct site actually makes no reference at all that i can find that says where they are machined. bad marketing for the ones machined here don't you think?

3. i don't understand the first part of the question. however if you are asking me if i personally know  how to due some material testeng such as durameter tests, tensile strength tests and rockwell hardness tests the answere is yes. Have i done any of these tests, yes. but why would this be important? i don't want to have to personally test a new set of rods i have just purchased. My reply to the second part is as follows. i do not personally know anyone that has had any trouble whatsoever with the cats however this is possibly due to the fact that i don't know anyone that uses them. perhaps that's because they are not well known, hard to find or out of business as you mentioned. most everyone has heard of eagle though. by the same tolken, i also do not personally know of anyone that HAS had trouble with the eagles.

4. your comments here are perfect and prove my main point exactly. all chinese engine stuff is highly suspect especially the parts that will see high stress loads. including rods that say eagle and their purported arp rod bolts. buyer beware! your comments show that you agree with me so i don't know why you are so vehemently defending a company that is "out of business" as you state. it is now absolutely baffling to me. why do you care about them so much? i will add this once again. are you 100% sure your eagle rods were the real deal? eagle themselves suggest on their site that there are other cheap chinese imitations of their chinese rod's. sounds kind of funny when you read that doesn't it? it sounds like they are saying "beware there are others making even poorer quality imitations of the poor quality rods were making. be sure to buy the number one name in poor quality rods. we are number one in making the best poor quality rods around". even the us stuff is not always perfect however most have there material us certified and they are typically better than chinese parts don't you think?

"if you buy chinese then get on your knees" cause you're goona need to pray it won't break. my girlfriend has seen this problem also and her comment was a bit less diplomatic. if you buy chinese then get on your knees cause you're gonna get "&!#&! IN THE &$!$!&". BAD GIRLFRIEND, SHAME, POTTY MOUTH, BACK TO YOUR CORNER!      

5. yes i agree for whatever my opinion might be worth.

6. i appreciate your apology for the 428 cam post issue however i think you missed my point it was hopefully unintential. if you were to apologize i was hoping it would be for calling me and partially my71 out for missing the word "balanced" and "solid" as i mentioned in my private message to you. however i'm not certain whether he edited his post and added those comments after we already replied so it would be more informative.

i'll gladly reply to any further questions i feel are reasonable if you have anymore after this. if you want to reply to my questions that would also be great but it's up to you.

Again i have no intent to drag this out.

thanks  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 01/21/13
08:48 PM

Sigggggghhhhhhhhh!!!

Amazon Brain 1 Zps6814e8f5

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

pepsi1 pepsi1
Enthusiast | Posts: 348 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/22/13
02:43 AM

Icon Quotefastoneefi:
I never said the Cats' weren't made in China. Please show me where I did.
There were, they're now out of business to my knowledge. And does the Eagle site say "all" of their rods are machined here? No, because they're not. I spoke to an Eagle rep at the latest PRI and he admitted it. They may be checked here, but their quality control has been less then perfect in the past.

Did you give any example as to how to check for initial integrity? No. How many people, first hand, do you know that have used the Cats and had problems? Please list them.

I have spoken to Bill Travato many times, the Cats are in his book. You will find many guys on the various Olds sites that have used them with no problem. You will also find many who have had problems with the Eagle rods and cranks, myself included. I just used a set of Eagle H Beam rods in a 380 SBO build I did listed on Classic Olds. I had to replace the bolts, the same ones that said "ARP" on your Cat rods that you criticized so much. They wouldn't even take 30lbs of torque without stretching and distorting the rod, much less the recommended 45.

Bottom line is check every part you buy. There are ways to check them initially as I stated. No manufacturer is exempt from mistakes. There are just some that are worse than others.

Barnett468-I got your pm, sorry for repeating myself on the fuel issue.

Thank you.


You Sell Yourself as an engine builder. Thats Fine. What was the last engine you used these junky rods in? Why do you have to jump on people for having an opinion. Then you double talk yourself out of it.
  You stated that when a guy spends his hard earned money on engine parts. Now he has to have the new rods break them down. Magnafluxe, xrayed, then install new bolts and resize them. Then break them down and retorque them, then they are OKAY. You have to be kidding. If thats not double talk what isn't it?
  Put new rod bolts in, retorque the rod bolts and that makes them GOOD. It makes what good?  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 01/22/13
03:16 AM

I sure wish you guys could settle this, without raising too much Cain on this public forum.,. I'm forced to keep a close eye on a number of posts and posters, in order to keep balance here.
There a number of options open to me, and I know you guys won't like any of them.
You can bet your azz I'm watching.

Cateyes

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

fastoneefi fastoneefi
Enthusiast | Posts: 347 | Joined: 01/10
Posted: 01/22/13
05:32 AM

Icon Quotefastoneefi:
I never said the Cats' weren't made in China. Please show me where I did.
There were, they're now out of business to my knowledge. And does the Eagle site say "all" of their rods are machined here? No, because they're not. I spoke to an Eagle rep at the latest PRI and he admitted it. They may be checked here, but their quality control has been less then perfect in the past.

Did you give any example as to how to check for initial integrity? No. How many people, first hand, do you know that have used the Cats and had problems? Please list them.

I have spoken to Bill Travato many times, the Cats are in his book. You will find many guys on the various Olds sites that have used them with no problem. You will also find many who have had problems with the Eagle rods and cranks, myself included. I just used a set of Eagle H Beam rods in a 380 SBO build I did listed on Classic Olds. I had to replace the bolts, the same ones that said "ARP" on your Cat rods that you criticized so much. They wouldn't even take 30lbs of torque without stretching and distorting the rod, much less the recommended 45.

Bottom line is check every part you buy. There are ways to check them initially as I stated. No manufacturer is exempt from mistakes. There are just some that are worse than others.

Barnett468-I got your pm, sorry for repeating myself on the fuel issue.

Thank you.


Icon Quotepepsi1:
You Sell Yourself as an engine builder. Thats Fine. What was the last engine you used these junky rods in? Why do you have to jump on people for having an opinion. Then you double talk yourself out of it.
  You stated that when a guy spends his hard earned money on engine parts. Now he has to have the new rods break them down. Magnafluxe, xrayed, then install new bolts and resize them. Then break them down and retorque them, then they are OKAY. You have to be kidding. If thats not double talk what isn't it?
  Put new rod bolts in, retorque the rod bolts and that makes them GOOD. It makes what good?


I guess I wasn't clear or was misunderstood.
When you buy new rods, anybodys rods, the best thing to do is unbolt them, clean them, then retorque them. Then they get checked. If they are the correct size and the bolts torqued well, they didn't seem to stretch, then 99% they'll be fine in a moderate build.
However I have had many sets that were checked right when I got them. We then pulled em apart, cleaned them then retorqued them and the big end sizing changed. That's what I mean.
I have not personally used the Cats but I know first hand guys who have and had no issues.
However I have used many Eagle parts, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Cranks have had to be reground from new, rods have had to be reconditioned from new, that's not good quality control no matter where they're sized.
Lately they have gotten better and I spoke the them about that at the latest PRI show this past fall. They are/were aware and assured me they were taking the steps necessary to fix it.

I do mostly Olds and we only have 1 aftermarket competitive rod manufacturer now, them. I hope they get it right, believe me.

And just an fyi, even Callies "Compstar" line is Chinese. Nothing wrong with it. It all comes down to quality control.

Hope this helps explain my earlier post.  
Mark
Engine builder, located in Central Florida

Pontiacman8 Pontiacman8
Moderator | Posts: 5779 | Joined: 02/08
Posted: 01/22/13
06:49 AM

Icon Quotetuffnuff:
I sure wish you guys could settle this, without raising too much Cain on this public forum.,. I'm forced to keep a close eye on a number of posts and posters, in order to keep balance here.
There a number of options open to me, and I know you guys won't like any of them.
You can bet your azz I'm watching.

Cateyes

Smile


+1 tuff I have been keeping a closer eye on things as well.
I have not been on much lately as I have been busy, But I will be on as much as possible to keep an eye out.

Stirring up trouble and hostility on this site will not be tolerated.  
Engine builder,self taught auto body guy.
Horsepower sells engines and torque wins races

Pontiacman8
Pontiacman8
Pontiacman8

pepsi1 pepsi1
Enthusiast | Posts: 348 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/22/13
03:31 PM

Peter and Bill:

I mean NO disrespect to either of you. I'm sure you know that by now. I don't want to start a range war either. But things should be taken behind the scenes. Then discussed there. Not on an open Forum. We are adults, but don't throw stones. A pumpkin may come back.
  The words "With All Do Respect" don't mean anything when the first stone has already been cast.
Thank you Both.

Bob  

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 2567 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 01/22/13
03:52 PM

OK Bob, I'll take your word for it.,. but the padding has to go on the broadsword again,,,,,,,, and the witty lance, we can do without.
Bill and I have gotten PM's from long time members, voicing their concerns, about this forum regressing.
We don't want this to happen and hence forth, caustic and inflamatory posts will be deleted and/or edited for content.
So let's be adults about this.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

barnett468 barnett468
User | Posts: 223 | Joined: 12/12
Posted: 01/22/13
08:13 PM

FASTONEEFI

There are three reasons i am posting my response to fastoneefi’s comments about me on this public forum. 1. He attacked me on this public forum 2. The veracity of his attack. 3. His attack is 100% completely baseless and unnecessary and if one reads closely they can easily see that there is no justifiable reason for it. I never attacked him in my original post he is referring to, I simply suggested strongly to be ware of chinese engine parts while at the same time i was supporting some of them. His name does not even appear in my original comments. baffling.

Others who view this  can now clearly see all posters here involved in this subject a bit more for who they really are and form their own opinions.

Fastoneoneefi, tuffnuff afforded you the opportunity to respond to my questions and comments as i responded in clear specific detail to all of yours. you chose not to respond in detail and rather decided to avoid the primary issue much akin to obama and friends response when questioned about benghazi. you offered no evidence to support  your statments against me, no reply to my questions and no apology for attacking me clearly without merit. i'm here simply to defend myself against the defamatory comments you have made against me.

Your basic reply seems to me to all this to be "inspect all new rods and repair as necessary. if they don't distort when the bolts are torqued I personslly consider them to have sufficient material quality and strength to withstand high horsepower applications".  it further suggests to me that you are implying that you can determine the quality and tensile strength of a rod simply with your hands and no testing machines designed for this purpose.  

i can now understand why i have received several private messages  from several other members regarding  you. yes i could post them and either block out or include the senders name to prove my claim however  i consider them my new friends and would never throw them under the buss. This is because unlike some others i cherish friendships and greatly appreciate the time people take to spend with me when i realize they could easily be doing something else.

Unfortunately the world is full of people that pointlessly berate others and those kinder gentler people have to suffer these bully’s belittling and bullying. It’s also unusual to me that the moderaters allow you to continue your behavior. perhaps they are your friends or unlike me they are simply more tolerant and choose to allow everyone including you the opportunity to voice their opinion even when  those opinions sometimes come at the expense of others feelings. i personally am not that bothered by them since i feel they have little value and are often made simply to belittle others and are not intended to be helpful or further someone’s goal.

Tuffnuff has a  saying on his home page which is “the bull chit stops here”  however it is my opinion that it never will with you. He also has an eagle symbol which I believe stands for freedom including the freedom of speech which hopefully also defends my freedom to defend myself against you and others like you.

If he blocks me, then those actions will also speak for themselves for all to see. I’m sad because for people like you he is forced to deal with things like this. I’m sure he has much better things to do. I am also sad for the people you subject to your occasional less than friendly and inaccurate comments without reason or provocation. If you have a reason then it’s obviously a different story.

I believe it’s pointless to go on with you regarding this unless you come up with a reasonable and rational reply or question. So until such time, if and when it ever occurs, I shall consider this case closed on my end and simply ignore your unfavorable comments unless you directly attack me again for no reason.
In closing I’ll say that I truly hope you eventually overcome whatever causes you to be this way and that you finally find inner peace.

Sincerely barnett468.  

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