Crane or Comp Cam and anything else

Taking some advice from Barnett468, since I just joined this website I am a little unfamiliar with.  Have patience with a all fingers and Thumbs guy.  As before, I am going to install a Cam this spring.  Got more info so I will put all down and maybe I can make a good decission before I tear into the motor.

Car:  1974 Trans Am
Differential:  Stock Pontiac with orginal 3.42 gears
Tranny:  T-10 4 speed
Carb:  Rochester 750 cfm with vacume Secondaries
Intake manifold:  Edelbrock Performer with no port matching
Distributor:  Summit Blueprint Series HEI
Rocker Arms:  Comp Cams 1.52 ratio Roller Tips
Headers:  1 5/8" Primary/3" Collector Ceramic Coated Headers
Exhaust:  X pipe with 2 1/2" exhaust with Turbo mufflers
Heads:  4X - 7H
Block:  WT 400 ci

Do not know about the remaining engine if it has been bored or modified in anyway, however I have noticed the oil pressure seems very high at well over 80 psi under hard acceleration so I dont know if its a high volume oil pump or if the gauges need recalibration, a blockage or what.

The following parts I have but not installed yet:
I have two new cams with lifters.  Comp Cam Grind number P268H-10 and Crane H-288-2. I also have a new Comp Cam Timing Chain/Sprocket set, Recurve kit for the HEI, all the jewelry for the Crane Cam (Springs, Retainers, Locks)

My question is this:  Which cam would be best for a Weekend Warrior?  Will one of these two cams work well without much more additions.  The comp Cam I feel is too mild, and I would prefer to use the Crane. I can add some new gears and pinions, and new heads either Kauffman or Edelbrock are not out of the question, but I would prefer not purchasing them. If I go with new heads, I may just do a complete overhaul on the engine.  The car will be used as a weekend warrior.  It is strictly a fun car.  It has 56,000 original miles, runs good but lacks the power to back up its good looks.

If these two cams I have listed are not appropriate for the engine components in the car, what would you recommend?  I can also change intake manifolds if you feel that would help as well.  The main thing I am asking will either of these two cams work well in my set up and maximize the components, or do I need to consider another cam?  Remember, I am not locked into any of these parts, I can change any of them to achieve my goal.  My goal is to achieve in the low to mid 13s in the Quarter or about 350 - 375 HP.  

HELLO BRADSHDJ

Yes xlnt move xlnt updated info. i will post you in a few minutes. there are several here with 13 and sub 13 second cars here. rowsley and my71 to name a couple. i'm sure they'll jump in to help spend your money.  

hello

You can easily achieve 13’s with your existing setup if you simply replace the performer with a performer RPM or victor jr style intake however if you have a stock bottom end you are a ticking grenade with old cast pistons. You would not want your motor to spit out more parts than it started with.

YOUR HEADS ARE 98 CC'S YOUR STATIC COMPRESSION WITH STOCK FLAT PISTONS IS 8,2-8.4 PER FREE WALLACE RACING ONLINE COMPRESSION CALCULATOR NOT 9.5 LIKE YOU THOUGHT. YOU WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE 9:1 MIN WITH THESE CAMS.

Are your heads off?

Are your pistons stock cast or forged?

It is best if your motor is not previously balanced.

Pocket porting and high flow valves on your stock heads will greatly increase hp and torque but is only necessary to go under 13.

Your crane is better than your comp but i would use the roller i recommended below than your crane if i had to.


Here’s the minimum of what you need to add to your l

ist get there reasonably.

1. performer rpm intake

2. roller cam with hydraulic roller lifters however solid roller lifters will get you much more hp and torque in the same size cam and the price is the same ie you can run a slightly smaller cam in a solid to get the same hp as a slightly larger hydraulic one.

3. ignition timing 14-16 degrees idle with 38 degrees at 3k approximately.

4. basically any NON ROLLER cam that spins 6000 RPM on up should get you there. These include virtually any cam with at least a 274 advertised duration. Any ROLLER cam that spins 5600 rpm or more should get you there.

5. Any ROLLER cam that that spins 5600 RPM or more. They can due this with kess rpm because they produce much more hp and torque than a non roller at lower rpm's.

6. Other advantages of a roller, less frictiin so less heat more hp and builds rev's quicker. No flat cam's. All this for another $200.00 including lifters.

7. Any hydraulic cam with a 274 advertised duration should just get you there.

8. Typically the wider the lsa the “softer” the powerband feels. Narrower lsa’s like 110-107 give you a sudden kick in the pants feel.

9. With stock pistons etc. I would use no larger than a 278 advertised duration cam and pray.

10. I would use a xr276hr hydraulic roller, rpm 1800-5600

11. quick computer dyno with rpm intake = 410 hp at 5000, 475 torque at 4000.

12. suggested gear ratio 343 min to 373 max with this cam.

13. get a dual inertia ring crank damper ati 917160. Od  is 7” may hit timing pointer or water pump pulley.


TRACTION BARS

You will absolutely need a set of these.


STREET LEGAL RADIAL STREET SLICKS

You will definitely need a set of these if you want to get the lower et's than stock tires. They will save around ½ second in the ¼ mile. May not recommended for extended fwy driving. See mickey Thompson or Goodrich etc.

If you rebuild your motor and buy pistons, head mods or heads, and possibly pistons you can easily go 10-11 for maybe 4k more in parts.  

BradshdJ, Welcome dude.

Honestly 13 seconds with your gearing is quite simple for your application. The gearing you have its even easier. I did below 13 with 3.23 and ZERO 60' times.. they were like 1,9 and ++.
The best way to answer your questions is mentioning what you want the car to do.. Baseline/expectations and foundation.
1. Oil pressure.. Depending on fresh rebuild or not a lot of wear on the engine in you Bird... 80 PSI is a possible reality without blockages. I mean does the engine make loud ticking time bomb noises? What colors the oil blackened and dirty? or looks fresh and not knowing viscosity and weight can also make you throw out some more questions you could answer for yourself by doing an oil change and seeing if a fresh filter and 10w40 keeps the PSI up their or 20w50.. Brand not overly important for this unless you have one particular that you like.. use it.
I had some questions not that P8 man or Rowsley and my71 wont be blowing your mind with the knowledge they bring. But here is a Comp Cams tech guy I had been emailing back and fourth with Gabriel Ray. amick@compcams.com
He and I traded a tone of emails over a few days a week or so back about push rods and cam cuts.. Serious wealth of knowledge and I appreciated all of it.
Cams are you particular to one of these over the other?
IMO.. of the two you listed I like the Crane over the comp cam product for what you said you are looking to do.
That comes with a But question... But what compression ratio will you be running, manifold be switching too, carb switch? or will you be staying stock?
All the things you want you will want matching parts that can flow with the cam to maximize everything you do.
Think of it like a giant puzzle. The more everything sync's the more you will get for what you're looking for.
I think you have a great platform and as much as I can appreciate the numbers matching deal... As I have all the #'s matching parts to my 69 Firebird.. The engine, heads, manifolds int/ext, along with the carb are sitting these years out.
Again toy.. You hit the nail on the head. Trailer queens and trophy fetchers.. fun to look at but its window dressing..
Look to intake, cast or aluminum heads... how far you wanna go.. Your wallet and you will make those ultimate decisions.
I look forward to some pics. I had everything from 3 69birds. 73, 71, 79,78,83... I think I may have been conceived in my mothers or fathers 67 or 69 back in the day... WHO knows.
But My grandma had my moms 69 carousel red firebird with white top and she used to take me shopping in it.. I was in love with the car from the moment GO.
Enjoy you car.  
Viagra and Torque are one in the same they both get you up!

You guys have my head spinning now.  Thanks for making me even more unsure in what I want to do.  Only kidding.

Motor makes no questionable sounds or knocks.  It runs real smooth.  Really cant give you an answer on the oil.  I use Brad Penn 20W50 and also put in a dose of ZDDP additive every oil change.  The oil gets changed every two months whether it needs it or not.  Brad Penn oil is dark dark green so its kinda hard to tell ya if the oil looks bad or not.  I have had the car for over two years now and I have only put 3500 miles on it.  She is pampered.  

According to Pontiac the WT 400 engine and 4X Head selection puts out 8.25 CR. I definately want to run the stock Shaker cause I have spent some money on it bringing it back to factory condition with a little addition, a solenoid valve complete with the kick down switch on the shaker plate.  If I go with a high rise instake such as the Edelbrock RPM I will have to get a new air filter pan due to the increased height of the intake over stock.  This is not a problem.  Do any of you have any comments or knowledge of the Professional Product single plane manifold that is at the OEM intake manifold height?  Butler and Kauffman both advertise it at around 300 cfm.  That would save the purchase of any more additions to the Shaker.

If I run the crane cam as listed, and if the pistons in the engine are factory stock, will this be an issue on service life or dependability?

With the current 4X heads, do you think I will have any real issues with the Crane Cam I listed above?  The Edelbrock RPM manifold sounds very possible. Also I am looking for a 828 cfm Rochester from a 71 455 to replace the 750 Rochester.  

Since talking to you guys I am definately going to change the gears to 3.73.  That will definately jive with the cam.  Also the Billet Timing chain will be bought.  What do you guys think about 1971 Pontiac #96 D Port heads?  I believe Wallace Racing rates them as the best flowing low compression heads.  There is an outfit in California that claims what they can do with em.

Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions.  I have already made a few changes and or additions.  The main thing I am concerned about is the cam Selection.  I dont want too much cam with my selection but want enough, with plenty of vacume for power brakes. I want the lope and idle to sound badass, but more importantly I want a dependable set up.  I guess I want the best of both worlds, and that is ok, as long as it is possible.  Dependability is alot more important than sound.  But I want an definate increase in power through the RPM range if I can get it.

Thanks guys

Danny  

hello well you just killed all the fun. you absoletkly can not have a nasty idle 13 second machine with power brakes ever. either just throw a comp orlun ti 268 in it or buy a quart size vacuum reservoir it mounts under hood. the rpm is better than the chinese pro products one  for you but you could use it    your comp willhave vacuum your crame shouldnt.any advertised rpm range that starts at over 2000 wot have good brake vacuum 1800 to 2000 is marginal i can look at your head switch later but you can look them up for cc just look here on pg 4 for pontiac heads or search online is the guy incalif bruce at pontiacengines.com rock and rol engineering. read both my posts again youll understand the info    thanks hbooster  

I would not use the crane cam with the low CR you have.
You should have 9:1 SCR or better when using that camshaft.  
Engine builder,self taught auto body guy.
Horsepower sells engines and torque wins races

bradshdj:
You guys have my head spinning now.  Thanks for making me even more unsure in what I want to do.  Only kidding.

Motor makes no questionable sounds or knocks.  It runs real smooth.  Really cant give you an answer on the oil.  I use Brad Penn 20W50 and also put in a dose of ZDDP additive every oil change.  The oil gets changed every two months whether it needs it or not.  Brad Penn oil is dark dark green so its kinda hard to tell ya if the oil looks bad or not.  I have had the car for over two years now and I have only put 3500 miles on it.  She is pampered.  

According to Pontiac the WT 400 engine and 4X Head selection puts out 8.25 CR. I definately want to run the stock Shaker cause I have spent some money on it bringing it back to factory condition with a little addition, a solenoid valve complete with the kick down switch on the shaker plate.  If I go with a high rise instake such as the Edelbrock RPM I will have to get a new air filter pan due to the increased height of the intake over stock.  This is not a problem.  Do any of you have any comments or knowledge of the Professional Product single plane manifold that is at the OEM intake manifold height?  Butler and Kauffman both advertise it at around 300 cfm.  That would save the purchase of any more additions to the Shaker.

If I run the crane cam as listed, and if the pistons in the engine are factory stock, will this be an issue on service life or dependability?

With the current 4X heads, do you think I will have any real issues with the Crane Cam I listed above?  The Edelbrock RPM manifold sounds very possible. Also I am looking for a 828 cfm Rochester from a 71 455 to replace the 750 Rochester.  

Since talking to you guys I am definately going to change the gears to 3.73.  That will definately jive with the cam.  Also the Billet Timing chain will be bought.  What do you guys think about 1971 Pontiac #96 D Port heads?  I believe Wallace Racing rates them as the best flowing low compression heads.  There is an outfit in California that claims what they can do with em.

Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions.  I have already made a few changes and or additions.  The main thing I am concerned about is the cam Selection.  I dont want too much cam with my selection but want enough, with plenty of vacume for power brakes. I want the lope and idle to sound badass, but more importantly I want a dependable set up.  I guess I want the best of both worlds, and that is ok, as long as it is possible.  Dependability is alot more important than sound.  But I want an definate increase in power through the RPM range if I can get it.

Thanks guys

Danny

I have used the Professional products intakes and they are not a good piece imo.
I have seen performance loss with them and would not use another one.

Going with the crane cam,rpm intake on this low compression engine is just going to make for a mismatched combination of parts. IMO  
Engine builder,self taught auto body guy.
Horsepower sells engines and torque wins races

You took my statement wrong.  Yeah the nasty idle is nice but its not a requirement.  If I get it I get it.  If I dont, I dont.  The sound is by no means my goal.  As far as the Chinese Intake, that was only a question.  I am quite happy with Edelbrock.  Just trying to get some info and weigh up everything before I spend any more money.  Kauffman and Butler advertise it both on their website as being one of their choices for an intake.  Your response was exactly the same as mine regarding the Professional Products intake when I spoke with Summit about it.  Summit actually agreed with you and I as well.

I dont plan on putting a vacume reservoir in so if what you say is true regarding the Crane, then I will get rid of it.  This project is going to be enjoyable & have a fun car to drive, or it wont be done.  I am not going to create havoc with the TA.  I am just wanting a bit more dependable power that is enjoyable to drive.  The Comp Cam I have now is more mild than I really wanted, so I am still not sure what will be installed.  But thanks for your opinion and help.  

Perhaps I am expecting too much.  Barnett468s idea of the 268 cam may be the best shot.  Like I said, I am only wanting a 13s car.  With the right combo I think I can obtain that without too many more screw ups in purchasing.

But I know how cam choice can be so critical and important in getting it right with what your goal is.  Perhaps I need to call Compcams as you suggested.

Thanks for all of your help and the email address.  I will use it.  Good info

Danny  

Bradshdj,

If you are looking to maintain stock or close to stock height manifold wise... Start hunting down the original edlebrock Torker.. Not the Torker II.. But its an open plenum manifold and flows better than anything they have now for pontiac. Most of the serious racers I knew ran them for Poncho's.
The down side is.. 8.25 and the cams you were interested in arent quite the cup of tea for it. You'll have to up your ante and go the 9.5+ CR to make it worth your while... The upside 13's in the 1/4 will be no problem possible to clip the mid 12's or better depending on your suspension and hooking.
I know alot of guys here are running comp cams, I run a lunati.. I loathe edlebrock carbs and cams.. Just their heads and manifolds are all I really like from their product line... Nothing else peaks my needs.
The 4x heads flow well if memory serves.. I am not that up on all the castings anymore.. I made my bed and quite a number of these guys set numbers spec's things long forgotten to me along with fixing my lousy math from a dozen years ago.
But take a look around on web sites and such looking for the Torker..
I dont know if Weiend still makes their open plenum manifold for pontiac but I had heard of their prowess back in the day on 421's.
Call email Gabe from comp cams and throw your ideas at him. They like us want to help.. Your ultimate decision...
I wont be running you for *** or Pink slips .. So like every other Pontiac enthusiast here we want what you want.. Your car or our cars running the best they can..
We all built our cars for different purpose, times, etc... So its a matter of you... No truely right answer but yours and what you want.. You'll be the one behind the wheel.
The Vacuum bottle is a great idea though. And if you are running headers put a ford starter solenoid in to avoid hot starts.
What else you got Questions on?  
Viagra and Torque are one in the same they both get you up!

Just checked the tag on the Comp Cam box and it is Grind # P268-10.  After looking it up that is for 8.0 - 9.0 compression so that is the right cam I ordered for maintaining most of the stock equipment or the equipment I have installed so far.  

We will give it a shot with this one and see how I like it.  If I dont like the performance, we will dish out some more cash for the Kauffman heads, RPM instake and go with the Crane Cam.  I will also most likely rebuild the entire engine and beef up the lower end like you guys recommend.

With the Comp Cam, do you think it will need a Vacuum Canister as Barnett suggested?  I may go ahead and install one anyway.

Thanks for your help as well as Barnett456.  You have both made things alot more clearer.  One last thing, If I go with a Torker two or the Victor manifold with the Engine overhaul and Kauffman heads, what carb do you lean towards?

Danny  

Hello  69birdjd

Even with your low compression you can still use the xe268h because you have a big block but more comp is better. I wish i had your existing cam specs to compare but i don't.

You will get big torque gains using the larger 1 3/4 od headers over your existing 1 5/8 od headers. sell em on ebay and buy some hooker super comps or similar.

A single plane manifold has less torque and hp in your particular case.

A mechanical secondary carb will feel more powerful when you floor it untill upper rpm.

A 650 shows only a 4 hp loss of power with any combo. Buy a 650-700 mechanical secondary. sell your other one on ebay

I did the following com dyno comparison for fun.

Your specs including comp xe268h and ra manifolds and 8:1 comp, your headers are considered “small” tube.

1. 316 hp at 4500, 411 torque at 3500 w small tube headers

2. 325 hp at 4500, 425 torque at 2500 w large tube headers [torque moved down 1000 rpm huge gain xlnt].

3. 326 hp at 4500, 408 torque at 3500 w low rise single plane edelbrock etc. massive loss of torque vs std dual plane edelbrock. Not good for this small of a cam.

4. 370 hp at 5000, 440 torque at 3500 w large tube headers and edelbrock RPM WINNER!

Hope this helps, thanks  

Yes it did help thanks.  I may just go ahead with the RPM manifold and get the Mechinical Sedondary carb which I was already looking for.

thanks  Danny  

hello bradshdj

check out my post above in case you missed it.

i look like a moron now cause i ran the xe you originally said you had while you were correcting your self and saying you had a p268-10. lol I can not find this cam listed anywhere. What are the specs on the cam card. Who did you buy it from? The dyno comparrisons shouldn't vary much though.

My post above answers your carb question as far as my opinion and the comp dyno is concerned. 650 double pumper [a mans carb] not a vacuum secondary [that's for your grandma].