Ad Radar
High Performance Pontiac
Click here to find out more!

Shades of Blue

  
High Performance Pontiac
1 |  2 |  3 |  Next   | Last 
Item Posts    Sort Order

Shades of Blue

 
Mr.Milt Mr.Milt
Guru | Posts: 1135 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 06/21/13
11:33 AM

Hello everyone:

My 80 Trans AM has had several coats of paint since it first rolled out the door.  I have found parts that were originally white and some that were Mint Green but it is mostly blue. Right now the top coat is a dull blue metallic with a couple of other coats a blue metallic below and only God knows the brands and types of paint (the last looks like it was clear coat).  Adhesion is not good - I blew about half of the paint off of the nose with an air gun at 125lbs.

The Cowl Tag indicates the car was 24L which translates to Tahoe Blue Lacquer According to the local Body Shop Supply there are two shades of the Tahoe Blue color that year an at that point the guy clearly indicated that he didn't want my money any more - apparently he is only interested in big accounts and Milt's Restorations is something he would like to get off his books. Long story short I left without looking at paint samples and now I need to know what color to put on the car.  Of course I know I don't have to be factory correct and it will never be a 100 point show car. One color that was on the car was bright sparkly blue color but I only have small chips of it and no paint chart handy.  

I have just converted to Soda Blasting and if it works I intend to go down to metal (I have to wait for a calm, dry, day before I try it).  If I get down to bare metal I would like to give it coat of Self Etching Primer and maybe a coat of Epoxy and time restraints call for as much of this to be done one coat following another; so, the questions of the day are:

Who has a good online source for good Paint (Eastman is expensive)?

Do you know where I can get the color matched or where I determine which shade of Tahoe Blue (it may be possible to tell from the manufacture date but that takes a supplier that is interested in accounts of $1000 or less per year)?

I was thinking about a good one coat over the base clear coats since I must now paint in a tiny garage and I may have to paint some parts (i.e. fairings etc.) at another time and I was thinking that Lacquer might be the way to go if it can be found anymore.

I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on at this stage of the project.

Milt  

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5148 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/21/13
01:25 PM

Hi, Milt!  Laugh

1980 Pontiac, code 24, WA-7116 "Bright Blue" =

PPG #3217, DuPont #B8013, Sher-Wil #30402

If those formula numbers are no longer active, it may have crossed to a more modern formula but at least one of the proprietary codes should be recognized by their mixing computer at the store. If you are gonna buy from a place, they should be willing to hunt down the formula and mix it right but samples can't be free. And the test half pint they mix may not look much like the gallon you get in the end.

Stay away from lacquer! Take my advice or find out why I say that when you price some. It ain't cheapest now, its a specialty coating! Stick with acrylic urethane but keep the price down by using medium quality clearcoat, thats my advice. Cheaper basecoat brands don't cover as well and often cost more because additional material is required for the same result. Watered-down, so to speak. But some of the lower priced clears work well. Air-dry clear can be used where the sun don't shine, in jambs. Using a two-component urethane primer is best if you have lots of different layers underneath, it at least puts a thin layer of plastic over the previous unknown coatings so the topcoats don't shrink so much over time.

Single stage enamel jobs, especially metallics are hard enough to spray successfully in a proper environment. They need air flow like only a booth can provide. Your situation sounds like a basecoat / clearcoat with urethane would be best, but you'll make at least four or five trips around the car. You can take off imperfections all the way up to clearcoat time, and the color will stay "open" long enough after drying that you can take your time and get it right before you clear. And of course using clear makes buffing possible after drying.

Seriously, check prices in your area but basic colors of a quality mixed lacquer now cost about the same as a gallon of medium-low quality urethane clear.  
idrivejunk

Mr.Milt Mr.Milt
Guru | Posts: 1135 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 06/21/13
05:03 PM

Hello Matt!  Thank you for your answer!

WA-7116 does not appear on the Body Tag where did you find it?  

I have used bc/cc a few times in the past but I got enough dust that I was not altogether happy with the results. The garage is only just big enough for the car if I put it in at an angle (Trans Ams are really quite big) and I just have barely enough room to spray and the door must be open to dissipate the noxious cloud.  While the car is inside the 79 must be outside (it is protected with 2 coats of epoxy primer with 2 coats of Self-etch under it) and I don't want to do that very bad. I will have to work as fast as drying time will allow. Allowing the Primer on the 80 to cure enough to sand and then the sealer and sanding that presents a classic Catch 22 for me. Now add to that the time it takes to spray a couple of coats of base and several coats of clear.  

I am looking for a different place to spray and I am exploring the options of fully prepping the car and having someone else spray it in a booth.  That adds cost and for most of us that is a factor.

I trust you implicitly, and I will follow your advice.  I have used PPG, Dupont. and Ditzler in the past all with good results. If it were you which brand would you go with and which Clear, in that brand.

Below is a link to the body tag photo.  I could not get a photo to post using Photobucket and it may be time to move to a different site (they can be a pain).  So I emailed the following link.  If you are unable to view it I can email it to you directly.

Thank you again for your answer!

Milt


http://s1193.photobucket.com/user/Mr_Milt/media/bodytag.jpg.html

Bodytag

A pic is worth.,. a 1000 words.,. tuffnuff

Smile  

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5148 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/21/13
05:41 PM

I'll get back with a full answer later on what exactly I might recommend today. Right now, the sun is at about the preferred angle for my precious Friday evening slow back road cruise in the purple bug killer. But I wanted to pop back in and tell you where I found that WA real quick.

paintref.com, an online color cross reference resource. I was led there from a web search for "B8013" after an image search for "1980 Pontiac color chips" gave me the DuPont number. Paintref had the WA#. Click on my link, below in blue. Or navigate to the home page and go from there. Seems like it might have been a 1980 only color?

paintref.com  
idrivejunk

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5148 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/22/13
02:29 PM

Ok Milt, sorry it took so long to get back to you. I hope the formula number thing made sense. The door to my opinion is always open, but its always the guy standing next to the car who calls the shots.

I have re-read your posts and am piecing together my mental picture of your project. Before making any specific recommendations, I think it wise that we get on the same page.

I'm assuming that you will featheredge and prime then dry and sand any areas of broken paint where the top layer is sanded thru, or that you have already done that. You could consult sticky posts on "sanding" and "primers" that I have written here in the past, if any refreshing of that is in order. Find those in the "body / paint upgrade" section of the forum. It kind of sounds like you want a single-stage topcoat that covers 80 grit scratches. You need a 320 scratch and minimal un-primed break-thrus on the existing finish before you can do anything that won't show thru. Even then, a wet-on-wet primer-sealer coat or two would be needed.

A guy on another forum just bought a quart of black lacquer and it cost $87. $58 for a gallon of thinner. I'm looking at a website called paintforcars.com and they have Five Star brand kits that include a gallon of urethane bright blue basecoat, a gallon of reducer, a gallon of clear, and a quart of hardener for $182. Thats just an example of price variation.

When it comes time for me to buy paint, I go to PPG first. All the major brands have lower priced lines now. It used to be your choices were just lacquer, enamel, or urethane. Now its all about urethane and water base in different price levels, and it all uses clearcoat with hardener.

I did two jobs for the same guy, around 2010. One was a frame-off keeper, one was a value-conscious old truck. I used Deltron on the keeper and Omni on the truck. Omni costs about half what Deltron does and they both buff up nice. But you might need a third more Omni product to get the same coverage. Laying down a slick job is all about technique, its the performance afterwards that really defines the paint's quality. I have Sikkens color on my GP, with Lesonal clear. I have panel-matched it even with my custom formula using the Lesonal formula conversion. Those are both made by Akzo but Lesonal is the cheaper line. Sometimes you can do that.

As far as whats available to you in your area and specific product recommendations go-

Find a helpful counterman and go from there. The brand is not as important as the service. If you cannot find one, ask then for the number of the local PPG (or whoever) rep. That individual will be the one with the info you seek, as far as what you can get away with using in that undesireable environment. If you can't locate good counter help.

I have been out of the paint loop for awhile and things change a LOT, fast in that world. I can tell you everything I've used and how I liked it, but if I had to buy today new research would be required. And I'm not sure that if I was there I wouldn't suggest primer rather than paint on what you have now. Find a helpful counterman then run his current brand and quality suggestions past us here on the forum. I don't know how critical the color authenticity is to you. My knowledge of your expectations and skills is vague and the last thing I want is to bump your rudder or block any wind from filling your sails.

I know most of what you guys ever see here on my posts is high end resto shop stuff, but I have tons of low-buck solutions from my own past projects. Honestly, I need to see an example of what you'll be painting over, Milt. With some good detail if you are skipping primer. Until then, I can't even say if I would recommend a shiny finish on it, buddy. I do want it to look good but protection is most important. If I were there it would be as simple as a walkaround and frank discussion of dollars.  
idrivejunk

Mr.Milt Mr.Milt
Guru | Posts: 1135 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 06/22/13
06:01 PM

Thanks for getting back to me Matt!  Tuff thanks for bringing up the body tag  photo.!

Lets start with me.  I have been doing body work and restorations for about 50 years.  When I was very active Lacquer and Enamel and some oil based barn paint was about all you could get. Then Uncle Sam sent me on an all expenses paid tour of SE Asia. When I got back Acrylic lacquer and Clear Coat was just coming into vogue but Lacquer was still king.  From ground up restorations to Hot Rods, some racing cars and a couple of XKEs and an Aston Martin DB4.  All in all I've done well over 100 cars (I never kept an exact count) At one point I owned an upholstery Shop, Auto Body Shop, Hardware, and a couple of other side business.

In all the time I have been on the site I have never went in this much detail about my background and I am not trying to boast but I am not a newbie in any sense. You have been around too, and right now your knowledge of modern paint products is appreciated more than I can put into words - and you may have noticed I can put a lot in words. You have taken a lot of time to answer my questions and I am grateful. Hopefully, the questions and answers will help some of the others as well.

My shop (aka my wife’s Garage) is small but I get a lot done in it. Although, I am looking at renting some space to spray and do finishing in; I try to put the smallest dollar into a project but I want lasting quality when I am done. Dollars can be replaced by elbow grease but sometimes nothing will do but money.  Therefore it is likely I will spray in the garage.

Surface Preparation.  You have seen the car in some of my old posts but until recently I have not focused on it.   I know I need to remove loose paint and a lot of paint is loose.  I am trying to include some photos of paint I have removed but they may not come across. A lot paint blows off with the air gun.  What does not will be removed with media blasting (probably Soda Blasting)  Once the car properly Primed and it can be worked, it will be block sanded, Sealed and that will be sanded with probably 400 wet) to give the new paint something to bite to.    I know some people like to use 600 but I have always felt it was too smooth for good adhesion but I will bow to your experience here.

Top Coats.  Once the car is properly prepared I will probably go with PPG base coat and Clear Coat it.  The one step to finish is appealing and less expensive but I think I have decided on BC/CC.  


Once I start working I will work through until it is done and I do need to get the car done as fast as possible once I start.  That doesn’t mean sloppy work or top coat on 80 grit scratches but it does mean working around the clock and catching naps where I can.

Again I want to thank you for your help and if we are ever fortunate enough to meet I owe you a Root Beer – or whatever your pleasure is.
 
Milt

Still having problems with the photos Photobucket is enoght to drive Carrie Nation to drink...

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa343/Mr_Milt/bth_100_0274.jpg  

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5148 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/22/13
07:20 PM

That site can act skittish at times! Give it a minute or two, I tried the link, no go. Mmm, root beer. Had one yesterday, I love the stuff. Not so much as a paint color but as a cool refreshing beverage.

On the final surface prep ... its a "when in Rome" thing. I have always followed the prevalent shop guidelines. The grit selection should be based on the tech document accompanying the product you purchase, technically. The big decider is whether you will be using sealer or not. If yes, 320 works and straight line scratches seem to bury OK. If not using sealer, 400 wet works but thats about the grittiest I'd use in any occasion. Personally, I might select 500 wet if available but I prefer working all dry and finishing gently with a DA.

On that Deltron job I mentioned, the customer specified wet sanding with 600, so thats what I did. On the Omni truck, I finished with 500 dry, on a DA. Final blocked both with 320, I think. All of it stuck, but the Omni has a reputation for peeling.

The peek into the origins of Milt is enlightening and makes it easier to talk straight across, thank you sir. You know what to do. I worked many positions in auto paint distribution for the first decade, then painted a couple years doing production crash work and spent the next decade doing late model collisions. Of course I paint the bumpers of anything I get my hands on because I think it looks cool, done it to three Pontiacs so far. Last two or three years has been all "classic and kustom", but little of it involved swinging a gun. I've been type cast as the all-around traditional muscle car enthusiast among my face to face peers, but all I ever did was fix cheap GM heaps and drive them til they break again just like Dad taught me to. Suddenly thats vintage know-how and I feel tired. Ha!

One thing is for sure, V8 Pontiacs and warm summer evenings go hand in hand. Ponchos are strong medicine  Smile  
idrivejunk

70bird 70bird
Guru | Posts: 1064 | Joined: 02/13
Posted: 06/23/13
02:29 AM

Hello Mr. Milt


As far as getting someone else to spray it inexpensively if you want, I have prepped cars then talked to the mgr of the local one day paint shop and had them shoot them for a few hundred dollars. You need to ask what type/brand of paint they are willing to spray before buying your paint. Give the painter a $20.00 because the mgr only gives him regular pay and he’ll spray under the rockers then too etc. All the painter does is spray cars all day long so they can do a very good job if they want to, that $20.00 helps motivate them do that, lol.

You might also be able to have a local high school do it.



Your photo link did not work for me.



"Mmm, root beer. Had one yesterday,"

A and W with vanilla ice cream!  

70bird 70bird
Guru | Posts: 1064 | Joined: 02/13
Posted: 06/23/13
03:01 AM

Hello


1980 Tahoe Blue TA's about 2/3 down the page

http://www.tran-zam.com/1980/Gallery.html  

Mr.Milt Mr.Milt
Guru | Posts: 1135 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 06/23/13
07:07 AM

Excellent photos - thanks.   The top coats of color have flaked off down to the original paint in places.  I think the person that originally panted it waxed it first. The photos you provided confirmed the color for me.


70:  Your suggestion is one of the options I am considering.  If I prep it well; then their paint jobs are not bad. However, they tend to spray at high pressure and fast and even when I buy good paint it is applied on the thin side.  I am still keeping that as an option.

Matt - as always your input is appreciated and I guess I have some reading ahead. Doing the work twice is not an option and I want to do it right to first time.

...and it is nice to know another kindred spirit that also enjoys a cold root beer from time to time  Smile  

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5148 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/23/13
07:35 AM

Milt- since you gravitate towards PPG too, heres the page where you can begin your research.

http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish/en/products/Pages/default.aspx

Theres a group of icons in the middle of the page and you can click each to see the different product lines PPG currently offers. Look at the catalog to select a group of coatings, make a selection and view it's tech data sheet. If you view those carefully you can probably come up with a fine choice. Then you'll need to consult the store for pricing on those specific products. Unfortunately, that info isn't really published on the web on purpose. But this helps to choose your paint without counterman assistance.  
idrivejunk

70bird 70bird
Guru | Posts: 1064 | Joined: 02/13
Posted: 06/23/13
07:40 AM

Hello


No, problem, I like that color.

As far as the painter going too fast etc. that's why I talk to the mgr AND the painter and give the painter some cash. I have had xlnt local level show quality results doing but everyone is different. Your one day paint shop may not be as good or reliable as the one I used. It's always a risk. Since it is your paint and you are paying xtra for them to spend time on it they should if they're conscientious.  

Mr.Milt Mr.Milt
Guru | Posts: 1135 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 06/23/13
06:34 PM

70: Your suggestion is definitely on my list things I gotta check out.  Monday is my first day back to work and I know all of my work waited for me so Tuesday is my target date to get calls made.

Matt:  I hope to start checking the PPG site tomorrow night.  

Today I started out blowing the TA with 140 lbs or air and it got about half the paint off the hood.  It was a hot day and I had to blow 30 minutes and wait for the compressor to cool so I dugout the pressure washer and put a zero tip in it and I was able to blow almost all of the paint off the front end and doors.

There was almost no wind so I didn't worry about the chips and one of them still made it to the neighbors driveway.  Boy was he PO'd.  He screamed that paint was dangerous to the environment and told me what an inconsiderate ass I was.

I have never failed to clean up my messes and this time was only slightly different. I used a leaf blower to pile up most of the chips and then I vacuumed his yard with the shop vac and what I could not sweep up I sucked up.  I did leave behind a few flakes that were stuck in the mud.  Those will have to wait until my next car day.

Some of the paint is stuck good and I am thinking I will sand that with the DA 60/80 and then look for flaws (ie cracks) that need further attention.

No doubt I will get more complaints when that starts but I do have a shop vac connected to it and that picks up about 80% or more of the dust.


Milt  

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5148 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/24/13
07:03 PM

Don't get me started on neighbors. Mine complains because my aux radiator fan runs a few minutes after the car is shut off.  
idrivejunk

Mr.Milt Mr.Milt
Guru | Posts: 1135 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 06/26/13
04:55 AM

Matt there is no accounting for some of the people in this world.  My neighbor complains about everything too, including the noise from the garage (with the door closed) apparently my Air compress disturbs him and it is actually pretty quiet kinda like your fan.

It makes me have evil thoughts like lobbing a water balloon filled with yellow water color paint in a certain direction.  Of course, I would never stoop that low but sometimes those thoughts give us comfort.

Yes Neighbors can be taxing - it is too bad people can't "live and let live"
Now if you will excuse me I have to go say 100 Hail Marys to atone for my evil thoughts...

Oh, BTW reading tech sheets is a lot like watching the paint dry isn't it?  

1 |  2 |  3 |  Next   | Last