High Performance Pontiac
Click here to find out more!

Still heating up, but no squeeeel

  
High Performance Pontiac
1 |  2 |  Next   | Last 
Item Posts    Sort Order

Still heating up, but no squeeeel

 
65pmdgto1 65pmdgto1
Enthusiast | Posts: 504 | Joined: 12/07
Posted: 03/23/14
01:03 PM

Well after spending a couple of days in the shop, while it's still spitting snow, the PS belt problem is a done deal. Makes a guy feel good to get'er done. Thanks again for your help guys. Grin  
While at it I did some spring cleaning and oil change, plugs, new brake booster, and welded a pin hole exhaust leak. Also replaced the fan clutch. Had a Hayden severe duty unit on it with a 7 blade 18" fan and shroud in place. I returned that unit to the guys over at O'Reily's and they replaced it with a new, same type, and I installed it while I the PS was off.
Last year in August went to a big rod run in Golden, CO. The traffic jam was terrible. The temp was in the high 90s. So my problem child got a little warm 230-240 for about 15 minutes until I could get some air through the radiator. Soon as I got to 35 MPH it cooled down to 195-200. On I-70 and doing 65 it was back to 180.  Frown
Today after it warmed up and I had all four back on the ground I took the car out for a short ride to make sure the brake bleed job was good. That proved the brakes to be good. I even got the front discs to release better. With it still running back in the shop I dug out the timing light just to check it. I played around and it probably sat there for maybe 10 minutes. The temp gauge was at 200 when I shut it off. That's no real big deal right but the new clutch fan wasn't what I expected. It's not free wheeling but not as tight as I think it should be. I got my laser temp gun out and the fan, about an inch from the radiator, was running about 145. The center of radiator was about the same. I took a reading at the thermostat housing and it was about 190. I'm just wondering if the kit to help get more air through the radiator, the rubberized material used by the factory would help this thing or is it the wrong clutch fan for this set up. Should I be using the more standard heavy duty clutch instead with this fan clutch. Sorry I usually go with more or bigger is better but maybe not in this particular application??????   Confused  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/23/14
01:16 PM

i don't understand what fan clutch you have.

there is a fan clutch and a thermal fan clutch. i would use a thermal heavy duty one from haydem.

you must have a fan shroud.

if you have a shroud and good fan clutch and it runs over 195 at idle, your thermostat is too high and/or your radiator is too small.

if you are running 50/50 coolant, you can cool it better with 20% coolant 80% water and 1 bottle of water wetter. this will protect against freeze to around 14 degrees above 0.

this will run cooler and also cool more quickly.

run your idle timing as high as possible. it should be at least 10, some get away with around 14. listen for detonation upon acceleration. i connect the distributor to ported vacuum not manifold vac.  

65pmdgto1 65pmdgto1
Enthusiast | Posts: 504 | Joined: 12/07
Posted: 03/23/14
08:38 PM

I'm running the severe duty fan clutch which is a thermal unit but is bigger and thicker than the heavy duty thermal one. I'm beginning to think that the severe duty units are for a bigger heavier fan. Initial timing is at 16 degrees with the vacuum hooked up to the ported side. The radiator is a four row core dessert cooler and is only 3-4 years old. I'm running a 180 degree full flow stat. I'm also using the high capacity/high flow aluminum water pump. The shroud is a repop and has a real nice gap all around form 1/2 to 3/4". That's why I was wondering if the rubberized fabric that the factory installed would help get more air through the radiator if I replaced it. That material didn't get replaced during the restoration. With these 6X-8 heads I could probably go higher but that's my personal limit.
Here in Colorado this year for example it got down to below zero several times. I keep this car in a garage that is heated but I would hate to lose power over night and wake up to heads lifted off the block. I've seen it happen and it's ugly. Water wetter has never done a thing for this combo. Should have spent that money on more Budweiser.  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/23/14
09:21 PM

just curious what brand is your desert cooler rad. if it is NOT a us made one the tubes are likely small and that is your prob.

us made tubes are 1/2" by 1/8"

having a severe duty fan clutch will not spin the fan slower. it is not your problem.

if you are running hot at idle at 40 - 50 degrees your prob is pretty big.

i don't know aboit the seal kit however if it does not mount on the shroud it will not improve cooling at idle. you can trun a 182 thermostat, you cann but a fuxed blade fan wgich might help but will be a little noisy at speed or you can buy a bigger rad.

how far into the shroud does your fan penetrate? it should be around 1/2 way.

is it a stock type shroud?

does it seal flush against the radiator?

buying bud is a bigger waste than buying water wetter, should have bought saint pauli girl, besides i thought it was illegal to sell or drink budweiser in coors country.


Stpauli  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/23/14
09:21 PM

double vision  

65pmdgto1 65pmdgto1
Enthusiast | Posts: 504 | Joined: 12/07
Posted: 03/24/14
09:09 AM

Yeah Silver Bullets are good too, but there's a Bud brewery just up I-25 just 60 miles. We can't drink 'em dry but we got 'em working 3 shifts.
The fan is about an inch and a half inside the shroud with about 3/4 " gap around the sides  and the shroud is a stock replacement type from Ames. The shroud does not fit tight to the radiator that's why I'm thinking the seals might help. The radiator brand is Dessert Cooler made in USA. Tubes look to be 1/2 by 1/8 inch. Water pump is a Flow King high flow aluminum unit.
There is a 65 tri-power car a few miles from here in a shop I know of. I think I'll go by and look at it today.
The only bigger radiator is one made for AC cars but the core support is made 2" longer in the cradle to accept it. If I were to go with a different radiator I would use an aluminum one for the AC cars and alter the core support to make it fit in.  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/24/14
01:19 PM

Ok, good info, here's the deal. I am actually the King of Cool...sort of, lol.

Hi, I'm the King of Cool...sort of, lol.

Images?Q=Tbn:And9gcslajjanjqkjbqj Egtbg5rjjds1 P06hnyh7xhqvu3ij8cohpatnxjaq


The "King" says, "Desert Cooler" is a name given to a model of rad built by us radiator in LA Calif. It is sold through their retail outlet in arizona called cool craft.

http://www.coolcraft.com/radiators.html

There are desert cooler fakes. There are also 4 models of desert cooler from us rad. yours is likely 4 row with tubes on 3/8 centers. they also make one with tubes on 5/16 centers which is called the optima core and both styles come in either std type single pass or optional tripple pass styles.

The tripple pass has 3 separate chambers that the water passes through before it exits the rad. it is also possible to get dual or tripple pass rads from mattson radiator for around $800.00. ouch. the optima tripple pass is less but still painful. more silver bullets required.

If you call and ask for an optima, they will try and talk you out of it. Don't listen to them.


ALUMINUM VS BRASS - I like aluminum rads but in general they don't cool significantly better than a brass one. The best deal on a heavy duty us made aluminum rad is probably Griffen. Northern just sells off the shelf rads.


FAN SHROUD - If your shroud has 1/4" or more of a gap at the rad then plugging the gap will help to some degree. the bigger the gap, the more it will help to plug it.


CLUTCH VS FIXED FAN - Clutch fans typically do not spin at engine spreed. Look at yours once it is engaged and see. if you can't tell you can mark the fan and pulley with white out in 3 equally spaced areas and connect a timing lite to your engine and shoot it at the marks to see if they move independently of each other, pretty cool huh?

If the fan turns slower than the pulley you can install a stock fixed blade fan or one from flex lite p/n 1717p. a fixed blade will be noisier than a clutch fan.

You need more air at low speed OR a rad with more cooling area AND more water capacity.


THERMOSTAT - Unless you have a rad the size of a swumming pool, it will never, ever run 180 - 185 in 90+ degrees at low speed temps especially at high elevations. Nope uh, uh, ain't never gonna happen.

Install a premium stant 192 or high flow 192. Your current t stat is open all the time so it is useless.  

65pmdgto1 65pmdgto1
Enthusiast | Posts: 504 | Joined: 12/07
Posted: 03/24/14
07:06 PM

Hey many thanks Cool King, it must be cool to be King. You are right now that I think about it the box my radiator came in said" US Radiator". Of course it's a down flow, wish it was a cross flow. Has 4 rows of tubes but looks like a single pass to me. I never looked in the outlet end to see if it had separation??? I bought this radiator from a local wholesaler in Pasco, WA. He had an old K-Mart tire shop full of radiators.
Today I stopped by the shop that's full of classics, mainly Pontiacs. There is a 69 Trans Am setting in one stall, only one I've every seen and the guy says it's #1. The build sheet says it was assembled in Canada. One of the guys, a car owner and general nice guy. You know like most car people, especially Pontiac folks. He showed me the 65 GTO, he said this is an original car and it never had anything special as far as cooling. It came with a five blade flex fan straight no clutch. But the original shroud does fit tighter than the repops. He like you, the coolest of cool kings, recommends a stock style flex fan, maybe 6 blade or the regular "heavy duty" clutch. There's also a 71 GS 455 car there has a stock 2 row radiator and a five blade factory flex fan, no clutch. The GS is a RA 4 speed convertible. Guys at the shop say overheating was never a problem. I'm sure GM spent the big bucks engineering these cars before the bean counters got to them. But it's not a real good image of your products are sitting along side the road boiling over.
You are right again. When we moved here from WA I could tell the difference in temp due to the altitude. I'm a retired construction electrician/inspector and electric motors and HVAC and electrical parts in general are "listed" for various altitudes. The Corp of Engineers really used to watch that close here in CO especially inside NORAD. So it does make a real difference with the air density.
I have in the past done what you mentioned with a timing light and a piece of soap stone. I might be creeping up on your cool......... Cool  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/24/14
07:57 PM

double vision  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/24/14
07:57 PM

you will never even be in the same universe as my cool until you dump the bud and grab the girl or at least some nice cold wet heini's.


yes your soap stone test was ingenious however you failed to MENTION THE RESULTS. Again uncool, however in recognition of this valiant effort I shall dub thee a Knight Of The Holy Grail.


The Black Night Monty Python And The Holy Grail 591472 500 276


the heavy duty and severe duty fan clutches are the same except for the cooling area of the clutch. as i mentioned, the severe heavy duty clutch fan is not your prob compared the the heavy duty or std. i know this because i am obviously the king. i even posted a picture of myself to prove it. would you like to see a larger one.


as far as going from a 7 blade to a 5 blade fixed, well your an engineer, this doesn't make sense because if the 7 blade clutch fan is spinning 20% slower than a 5 blade fixed fan but it has 20% nore blade area than my abacus says the change is 0.


you can measure the tube spacing on your rad or count the rows across and use your abacus to determine if they are 3/8" or 5/16" on center. either way it will not be a multi pass because they are special order only.  

65pmdgto1 65pmdgto1
Enthusiast | Posts: 504 | Joined: 12/07
Posted: 03/25/14
07:13 AM

Thank you your Royalness for your most wondrous response to my lowly worldly dilemma. I will forever be in your Hindus' debt for your ponderance on my behave.  During my checking the slip of the clutch fans in the past there has always some percentage for each clutch I've checked. It's hard to put an exact percentage on the amount of slip, battery went dead on my HP graphic calculator, but if the clutch is a good one you watch it tighten up as the temperature increases. I check the temp with my handy dandy, bought it a HF, laser temp gun. I have slain many a dragon with that mighty laser gun. I will defend your Hindus' cool and massive ego from all sorts of villains and dragons. I will though need my Silver Bullets and life long companion Bud Light at my side to protect and defend your Girls and wet heini's. I have enjoyed a girl or two and a few wet cold heine's too but bullets and good ole Bud will get me though the darkest Knights. Tongue  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/25/14
03:43 PM

ok in lieu of buying a new rad, this is what i would do. keep in mind that you can sell your current rad on ebay for maybe $150.00 if you buy another one.

1. 1 buy a fixed 7 blade blade non flex type fan. ford mas some. if you have enough room to install one that is around 1/4" to 1/2" i would do that providing the pitch of the fan is not less than an 18" fixed one.  

2. seal the gap between the shroud and fan as mentioned. if your seal will not work you can try single sided sponge rubber. something like 1/4" thick by 1" wide. stick it to the radiator. the shroud should press on it slightly otherwise it might fall of when the glue gets hot.

i think you can get it at home depot etc. ask for door seal or weatherstrip etc.

3. run the 192 t stat as suggested.

4. if you can not find a ford fan buy a fixed 7 blade gflex fan, i might use a gm type instead of a flex a lite.

the mounting holes can easily be modified to fit your app.

buy a universal spacer the appropriate length from the parts store.  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/25/14
04:21 PM

I have a few links to fixed 7 blade std and flex fans but the site will not accept them.

If thou pm's thy email to thine magnificent self, I shall bestow upon thee thine magnanimous benevolence of thine impotent generosity by sharing this knowledge with thee.  

shyrgfuh3 shyrgfuh3
Enthusiast | Posts: 446 | Joined: 11/13
Posted: 03/25/14
04:21 PM

i have a few links to fixed 7 blade std and flex fans but the site will not accept them. if you pm your email to me i will send them to you.  

65pmdgto1 65pmdgto1
Enthusiast | Posts: 504 | Joined: 12/07
Posted: 03/25/14
07:30 PM

Makes me chuckle when I think of the first car show I took the GTO to. I had the radiator to shroud sealed up nice and tight with foam type tape you mention. Was running a nice shinny 6 blade flex fan. Had the trophy in the back seat and smiling ear to ear. I had just crossed the Yakima river on the inter-state cruisen the speed limit and kind of miss and instant stall for a split second. Oh crap WTF and a vibration???? Looked in the mirror and what I see but a big wad of grey foam tape. I eased it on home a couple of miles and opened the hood, huh no foam tape and the flex fan has 2 obviously bent blades. That's when I went to the clutch fan and never really been satisfied since at low speed.
What I will do is change the stat to a 192 high flow. The 6 blade flex fans are readily available. I still have the spacer from the previous attempt. But I will try to find some of that heavy vinyl material that is used on commercial flat roofs and build it onto the shroud with some nice rivets and washers. If I was back in WA I would have a friend of mine build a new shroud out of aluminum. He has made some beauties. This repop unit is the next best thing to nothing. I'd rather switch to PBR than run a Ford fan but thanks for the thought. My cousin used to own Gas Alley and has a bunch of misc. stuff around. I'll call him tonight and ask about a 7 blade and tell him I don't want to know it came off of.  

1 |  2 |  Next   | Last